Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWine

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Wgonz
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Wgonz »

To clarify on questions regarding carrying in a vehicle, etc: the bill didn’t try to go in and re-write all of the existing verbiage regarding the law when you don’t have a license vs when you do. Instead, the bill basically went in and declared that everyone 21 or older who is NOT a prohibited person, or does not otherwise become a prohibited person by doing something stupid, hereby is considered to be licensed. The bill says that everything a CCW holder previously could do, now all non-prohibited persons can do. That also means that if you do become a prohibited person by doing something stupid (all the same things that would have made you ineligible for a CCW before), that will still revoke your constitutional carry “license” - exactly as it would have, and still does, revoke your CCW license.

If you pull up a copy of the bill, the new additions are underlined, and the new deletions are scratched out. If it’s neither, it’s part of the existing law that was untouched.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

miker wrote:Never mind with a little bit of digging found section 2923.111
Nice job finding the key to this whole piece of legislation. Well done!
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

Wgonz wrote:To clarify on questions regarding carrying in a vehicle, etc: the bill didn’t try to go in and re-write all of the existing verbiage regarding the law when you don’t have a license vs when you do. Instead, the bill basically went in and declared that everyone 21 or older who is NOT a prohibited person, or does not otherwise become a prohibited person by doing something stupid, hereby is considered to be licensed. The bill says that everything a CCW holder previously could do, now all non-prohibited persons can do. That also means that if you do become a prohibited person by doing something stupid (all the same things that would have made you ineligible for a CCW before), that will still revoke your constitutional carry “license” - exactly as it would have, and still does, revoke your CCW license.

If you pull up a copy of the bill, the new additions are underlined, and the new deletions are scratched out. If it’s neither, it’s part of the existing law that was untouched.
Don't forget, it's not just "everyone 21 or older who is NOT a prohibited person", they also cannot have anything in their record that would prevent them from getting a CHL. This is going to cause a *lot* of confusion - and I fear, arrests.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Brian D. »

I think also some longer than acceptable traffic stops while the less than perfect LEADS data gets sorted out.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

Brian D. wrote:I think also some longer than acceptable traffic stops while the less than perfect LEADS data gets sorted out.
If/when that happens, I hope some of the individuals involved file suit. As I understand it, you cannot prolong a stop like that. Especially for something that is presumptively legal for probably 80% of Ohioans.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Jim-in-Toledo »

I suggest that anyone who currently has, or had, an Ohio CHL, or gets one in the future, continue to carry it when out and about and armed in the future, even after it expires, to show they have had the specified training listed, to any Officer who might want to know in the future, just to reduce the time involved if and when the question might arise.

I still carry my OPOTA Police Academy and Firearms wallet sized Certs from 1973, so I can show anyone who might want to see them. Just because I can.

It made an impression on a Toledo Judge in 1977 when he immediately dismissed a CCW charge a TPD officer filed against me for open carrying between locations I was checking on a patrol route while working uniformed security, and I stopped at a restaurant at 4:30 on a Sunday morning for a cup of coffee. The Judge also wanted to see the officer "in chambers" before he left.

At the time, Toledo had a local ordinance that prohibited open carry within the city limits.

(Prudent man defense also applied at the time, "The Defendant's Occupation was of such a nature that was likely to subject the person involved to a high degree of risk of criminal attack.")

"Stuff" happens, be prepared.

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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

Jim-in-Toledo wrote:I suggest that anyone who currently has, or had, an Ohio CHL, or gets one in the future, continue to carry it when out and about and armed in the future, even after it expires, to show they have had the specified training listed, to any Officer who might want to know in the future, just to reduce the time involved if and when the question might arise.
I'm curious why you think that would be important since there is no training requirement for carrying without a CHL under the new law.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by M-Quigley »

WHIO TV is quoting this guy:
“I’m not happy with the idea that you don’t have to inform law enforcement that you’re carrying a gun,” said Sanford Whitlow, CCW instructor and owner of Personal Defense Inc. in Vandalia.
And then WHIO goes on to explain that this isn't exactly true. :roll:
Many of Whitlow’s clients work in law enforcement and he says many of them he says are concerned about the new law.

“If you don’t know how to act or how to conduct yourself when you’re approached by law enforcement...you may do the wrong the wrong thing,” Whitlow said.Many of Whitlow’s clients work in law enforcement and he says many of them he says are concerned about the new law.
Again, how is an LEO saying this few simple words "Do you have a firearm with you?" decrease officer safety in any way shape or form? :?:
Under the new law, you don’t have to tell an officer you are carrying a concealed weapon, but if law enforcement asks you if you are, you are required by law to tell them. Failure to do so would be considered a misdemeanor offense, according to the bill signed into law this week.
Or to put it another way, instead of informing "promptly" whether LE already knows that you're carrying or not, you have the option of waiting until they ask you. :roll: You still can inform "promptly" if you want to. Unless this guy was misquoted or taken way out of context why should people take CCW courses from someone who can't read the law?

I know there used to be a downloadable booklet the Ohio AG had online for people taking a CCW course. Maybe I'm wrong, IDK, but someone once told me that the laws on gun usage related to self defense and carrying in Ohio were also online in a easily understandable format for people who want to be informed but don't have the time or money to pay an instructor $$$$ like the guy mentioned above, to take a CCW course. Anybody know where that online source is?
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Wgonz »

M-Quigley wrote:…I know there used to be a downloadable booklet the Ohio AG had online for people taking a CCW course. Maybe I'm wrong, IDK, but someone once told me that the laws on gun usage related to self defense and carrying in Ohio were also online in a easily understandable format for people who want to be informed but don't have the time or money to pay an instructor $$$$ like the guy mentioned above, to take a CCW course. Anybody know where that online source is?
I think you mean this: <https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Fil ... (PDF).aspx>
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by kcclark »

Cannot say that I've found a single article about SB 215 that mentions OFCC. BFA and Dorr are getting the press. On the plus side, I was surprised that Toby Hoover did not get a quote in this article. She did get quoted in other articles I've seen. I did not find a single article quoting person currently in charge of OCAGV, whomever that may be.
With Republican majorities in both chambers of the General Assembly, representatives from the Buckeye Firearms Association and Ohio Gun Owners pointed to three bills they hope will soon be enacted.
https://fox8.com/news/ohio-pro-gun-grou ... ssed-next/
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Chuck »

kcclark wrote:Cannot say that I've found a single article about SB 215 that mentions OFCC. BFA and Dorr are getting the press. On the plus side, I was surprised that Toby Hoover did not get a quote in this article. She did get quoted in other articles I've seen. I did not find a single article quoting person currently in charge of OCAGV, whomever that may be.
With Republican majorities in both chambers of the General Assembly, representatives from the Buckeye Firearms Association and Ohio Gun Owners pointed to three bills they hope will soon be enacted.
https://fox8.com/news/ohio-pro-gun-grou ... ssed-next/
Well, there is this:
https://www.10tv.com/article/news/local ... 6mdbSBYrZU

I'm sorry, I haven't been beating the publicity drum like I once did, but as I grow older I find myself with less and less time on my hands for drumming it up. As Terry Johnson says, "We don't care who gets credit, we just want the law fixed."
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Jim-in-Toledo »

JustaShooter wrote:
Jim-in-Toledo wrote:I suggest that anyone who currently has, or had, an Ohio CHL, or gets one in the future, continue to carry it when out and about and armed in the future, even after it expires, to show they had the specified qualifications, training, lack of disqualifying offenses, or other restrictions, disabilities, etc., to actually get a CHL, at least up to the date on the CHL, to any Officer who might want to know in the future, just to reduce the time involved if and when the question might arise.
I'm curious why you think that would be important, since there is no training requirement for carrying without a CHL under the new law.
Changed the above: had the specified training listed,

Having a current, or previously issued CHL could help an Officer in trying to determine if the subject is a “qualifying adult” by reducing the time frame in which they are looking for "disqualifying" factors.
xpd54 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
xpd54 wrote:Was looking at this over the last few weeks. It’s definitely going to be a PITA for us. Especially following LEADS rules. I’m already working on a lesson plan to train my guys.
Can you fill us in on what that looks like? To what extent, LEO's are going to be able to determine if a person without a CHL is allowed to legally carry concealed or in a vehicle, and whether they'll actively try to make the determination?
Sure thing. We currently get criminal history’s (we call them CCHs) by having our Dispatch run them. There may be a way for us to run them on the terminals in our cars, but I’ve never tried or been trained on how to do it. If we can’t (and I don’t think that would be allowed by our brass even if we were theoretically able to), then getting it from Dispatch is our only way to get that info. To further complicate things, Dispatch can’t give that information over the radio or phone (LEADS rule). Someone has to physically go get the hard copy and bring it to the Officer on scene. To complicate matters even more, if someone has a DV charge, and it’s pled to something like disorderly conduct, the CCH may not actually give you enough information to figure out if that conviction actually puts someone under a disability. You may have to actually get your hands on the court documents to see what ORC section is on the court paperwork. Which more than likely isn’t available after hours. Ever wonder what happens on a delayed background check for a gun purchase? They (FBI) send a request to the original agency asking for a copy of the report so they can determine whether that misdemeanor arrest that is showing up on a CCH counts as a DV.

And to further complicate matters, they have now incorporated 18 USC 922(g) into the definition of a “qualifying adult”. Very few Ohio cops have any training on what makes a 922(g) disability (since it’s different that what is covered under Having Weapons Under Disability) or even the nature of the 2923.125 disqualifiers because we don’t deal with them. The Sheriff’s Offices do, and only certain people within the SO handles CHLs.

So the bottom line is that this has made our job much more difficult if we actually try to determine whether someone is a “qualifying adult”. If they had any pro-gun LE input in this, whoever recommended something like this is an idiot. There’s even confusion amongst some Sheriffs about this, and they’re already trying to get clarification, at least according to my sources.

Hope all that makes sense.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Corys0022 »

So I have been looking around on the forums and maybe I have missed it.. But The media keeps blowing this up about how people will no longer have to notify an officer unless the officer asks. Now I'm not a lawyer, but I do enjoy a good bit of law reading. what concerns me is I do not recall the original bill having stated the word BEFORE. Seems like this may have been part of a last minute amendment? To me that means that even if a cop does not question you about a firearm, you would need to disclose that you have a firearm at some point before the stop ended or risk criminal arrest? does anybody else see the concern with this and how news articles may be leading people to believe oh a cop NEVER asked me well I do not ever have to tell them... I have snipped the code below from the as enrolled document off the Ohio legislature website. It's ORC 2923.12 B(1) page for of the enrolled bill.


before or at the time a law enforcement officer asks if the person is carrying a concealed
handgun, knowingly fail to disclose that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Glock Rock »

Chuck wrote:With Republican majorities in both chambers of the
I'm sorry, I haven't been beating the publicity drum like I once did, but as I grow older I find myself with less and less time on my hands for drumming it up. As Terry Johnson says, "We don't care who gets credit, we just want the law fixed."
I intend to retiring this year and soon will fade away. If any of you want to carry on the fight and speak with a bigger voice I encourage you to get more involved in OFCC. My time spent was what I made of it, very enjoyable, educational, and satisfactory. Your's can be the same.
Eff ‘em Chuck D. You have done wonders. Someone else’s problem now. Leave it to the young know-it-alls.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

Corys0022 wrote:So I have been looking around on the forums and maybe I have missed it.. But The media keeps blowing this up about how people will no longer have to notify an officer unless the officer asks. Now I'm not a lawyer, but I do enjoy a good bit of law reading. what concerns me is I do not recall the original bill having stated the word BEFORE. Seems like this may have been part of a last minute amendment? To me that means that even if a cop does not question you about a firearm, you would need to disclose that you have a firearm at some point before the stop ended or risk criminal arrest? does anybody else see the concern with this and how news articles may be leading people to believe oh a cop NEVER asked me well I do not ever have to tell them... I have snipped the code below from the as enrolled document off the Ohio legislature website. It's ORC 2923.12 B(1) page for of the enrolled bill.


before or at the time a law enforcement officer asks if the person is carrying a concealed
handgun, knowingly fail to disclose that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun
I don't share your concern, but then I'm not a lawyer either. Here's how I see it If you disclose before they ask, fine. If they ask, and you disclose, fine. If they don't ask, and you disclose, you are fine. If they don't ask, you can't fail to disclose before they ask because they didn't ask...
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