S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

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JustaShooter
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by JustaShooter »

sunfish valley wrote:also creates a gun registry
No more so than concealed handgun licensing does - since no information about the type of firearm, serial number, etc. is involved in the "buyers certificate", it at most creates a registry of potential firearm buyers. Don't get me wrong, I oppose this bill in its entirety but we need to be sure to oppose it for what it actually does.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by sunfish valley »

if it is like a 4473, and it contains the serial number and type of firearm, what else would you call it ??.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by JustaShooter »

sunfish valley wrote:if it is like a 4473, and it contains the serial number and type of firearm, what else would you call it ??.
It doesn't.

(And as far as the 4473 goes, the serial number, make, model are on the form but do not get transmitted to the ATF. That stays at the FFL, the only thing the ATF gets is handgun, long gun, or other. So, not an effective gun registry either.)
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by machinegunkelly »

JaS
So a 4473, can be buried/burnt and never have to be given to the government?
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by JustaShooter »

machinegunkelly wrote:JaS
So a 4473, can be buried/burnt and never have to be given to the government?
MGK
FFLs must retain them for 20 years, and are never required to turn them over to the government unless the FFL goes out of business. And, when that happens, the government is prohibited from digitizing them anyway - so, there are boxes upon boxes of forms from FFLs in government warehouses - again, not the most effective way to run a registry...
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by kcclark »

JustaShooter wrote: FFLs must retain them for 20 years, and are never required to turn them over to the government unless the FFL goes out of business. And, when that happens, the government is prohibited from digitizing them anyway - so, there are boxes upon boxes of forms from FFLs in government warehouses - again, not the most effective way to run a registry...
It appears that ATF is trying to change that.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/02/atf-pr ... z6EBeCLsNo

https://gunowners.org/does-the-atf-have ... t-you-own/
I was given a demonstration and shown how the software exports the data (guns and gun buyers names and addresses) into either a PDF that resembles an old-fashioned bound book or a Comma Separated Values (CSV) file that can be opened in Microsoft Excel.

I was told that this “feature” makes a compliance check easy because the dealer simply exports the CSV file to a thumb drive and the ATF leaves with the data. I was told that ATF analyzes the data away from the FFL’s premises.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by WY_Not »

Yes, because government agencies are famous for not doing things they aren't supposed to do. :roll:
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by bignflnut »

Trump's ATF is at it again, eh?
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by bignflnut »

When speaking with the software vendors, I specifically asked how does ATF conduct compliance inspections of dealers who are using this software package. I was given a demonstration and shown how the software exports the data (guns and gun buyers names and addresses) into either a PDF that resembles an old-fashioned bound book or a Comma Separated Values (CSV) file that can be opened in Microsoft Excel.

I was told that this “feature” makes a compliance check easy because the dealer simply exports the CSV file to a thumb drive and the ATF leaves with the data. I was told that ATF analyzes the data away from the FFL’s premises. If there are any discrepancies or problems the gun dealer is notified and usually given an opportunity to correct the errors.

When dealing with compliance with government rules, many people do what is easy. That’s why so many file their US form 1040 tax return electronically, even though experts claim that increases the likelihood of an audit. I wasn’t surprised when the software vendor told me how well-received their application has been. Especially since it makes things easy, and ATF is not on dealer’s premises for more than a few minutes.

I accept that it is bad for business to have ATF personnel hanging around. This scheme is a danger, and allows ATF to easily create a gun registry — in violation of 18 USC 926 (a)(3). We have no way to know if a registry is actually being created and if the ATF is or is not destroying these records at the conclusion of the compliance check. One might argue they’re not, because GOA has received reports of ATF demanding copies of entire (paper) bound books. That is bad, but at least with paper, the data still needs to be converted to an electronic format to be of any real use. However, a CSV file that can be searched in MS Excel is of significant value to a government that wishes to track gun owners.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by sunfish valley »

with government, if it was ever on paper, its now somewhere now digital.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by bignflnut »

DeWhine just pumped Ohio Strong gun restrictions again in today's conference..."doing nothing, is not an option".

Sounds like there's a newer better, fancier database that has the governor excited, but that there's no current mandate to feed the database that will "keep us all safe". So, more laws will do that, to be sure.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by Javelin Man »

bignflnut wrote:DeWhine just pumped Ohio Strong gun restrictions again in today's conference..."doing nothing, is not an option".

Sounds like there's a newer better, fancier database that has the governor excited, but that there's no current mandate to feed the database that will "keep us all safe". So, more laws will do that, to be sure.
E-warrant or something like that. Makes it easier for law enforcement to enter warrants and other items that make a person potentially ineligible to own/purchase a gun. Also, an officer will get faster news concerning arrest warrants before he/she approaches a vehicle with a person in it.

blah-blah-blah. Officer safety.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by WhyNot »

This is linked within the article. The article also cites several other Ohio based organizations.

https://ohioccw.org/?view=article&id=51 ... s&catid=39" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot the news article that contains the link . There are several links, check the original published dates, OFCC published 1st it would seem 8)

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/p ... 201097002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by bignflnut »

What I’d rather not mourn, however, are the gun rights of law-abiding Ohioans. Yet that’s precisely what Governor Mike DeWine seems to think the problem actually is.

An outbreak of gun violence in Cincinnati early Sunday killed four people, injured 14 in four separate incidents, and renewed calls for action statewide on gun violence which were first voiced a year ago after Dayton’s Oregon District shooting.

“Ohio must act,” Gov Mike DeWine said in a statement issues Sunday. “As more and more people are hurt and killed by gun violence, I am again urging Ohio’s legislature to pass our #STRONGOhio bill. This bill will help protect our citizens while also respecting the Second Amendment and due process rights.”

Oh boy, where do we start?

First, we don’t really know much about these particular incidents. Police are still investigating, so we don’t even really know who carried out these attacks or why they did it. We damn sure don’t know anything about how they obtained their weapons in the first place.

In other words, we have absolutely no information to suggest that DeWine’s gun control proposals would have done a damn thing to stop this attack or not. Based on how effective gun control historically has been, I’d say it wouldn’t have done much.

However, that’s especially true for DeWine’s bill. It pushes non-mandatory background checks and increased penalties for gun crime, which may be all fine and good, as well as crisis intervention, but we don’t know whether this was a “crisis” kind of attack or if it was something else. DeWine is taking a page out of the Democrats’ playbook, though, and making a shooting all about his gun control bill.

It’s not, and the STRONG Ohio bill wouldn’t have accomplished a damn thing to prevent those deadly attacks.
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Re: S.B. 221: DeWine's bill

Post by WhyNot »

JUST LIKE A DEMOCRAT, cry for gun control while the bodies are still warm...
Oh boy, where do we start?

First, we don’t really know much about these particular incidents. Police are still investigating, so we don’t even really know ...
Just a little more...it's reasonable...now you can keep your XYZ gun (for now) 8) ....

From this article...
https://www.journal-news.com/news/17-sh ... YTK7ROHSA/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One of the shootings occurred about on McMicken Avenue, in the Over-the-Rhine neighborhood, where Rogers and Grant were killed. A total of 10 people were shot at that location, police said.
OtR? How did I, who lives 2.5 hrs away, kinda knee-jerk to that location and GET IT RIGHT? OtR, 'whudda thunkit'

I M 2.5 hrs away. I guess according to the Gov, somehow, it's all MY FAULT.
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