Will Dems cut deal to tilt Speaker's race?

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Re: Will Dems cut deal to tilt Speaker's race?

Postby Mustang380gal » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:27 am

williaty wrote:More than that, the belief that every human has the fundamental right to control what happens to his or her own body is every bit as important to liberals as the idea that gun ownership is a fundamental right is to conservatives. No one on here wants to move towards California's model of gun control. Why on earth do you think liberals would like the current laws around abortion which, in most states, are worse than California's laws on guns?


The baby (latin: fetus) is not the mother's body. It has its own DNA, and half of the time is not even the same biological sex that the mother is. I'm a NICU nurse, and have seen 23 week babies survive and be healthy enough to go home. And many see this issue as a moral issue. Killing of humans is wrong (except in cases of self-defense and war); killing a baby in utero is neither self-defense nor war. Therefore, killing a baby in utero is wrong.

American conservatives have let their worst elements dominate their voice in the national conversation for the last 30 years. By not shouting down the most extreme elements on the right, your public image has become that of the worst people in your camp. Since Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich, the right has let the homophobes, racists, misogynists, adulterers, and bigots be their representatives on the national stage. When you fail to silence the people who claim to speak for you and speak horrible things, you let yourselves be painted with the same brush. You (the collective you), by failing to object loudly, clearly, and repeatedly when horrible (note that I DON'T mean that they're horrible because they're conservatives, all of them have serious moral failings personally), Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and Mike Pence (and so, so many others) claim to be supported by you, you ensure that the rest of the world views you as supporting the things bad people do. When the president is on tape bragging about sexual assault, every conservative has a moral obligation to stand up and say "That is not a conservative value!" and boot the criminal out of the party. When an advisor to the president is a white supremacist, every conservative has a moral obligation to stand up and say "That is not a conservative value and is not a Christian value." and boot that person out of the party. However, the right has currently decided that party unity and strength is more important than living up to moral values. Until that changes, the rest of the world is going to perceive the average American conservative as part of the problem.

The left has a big problem with this too but I think we're a few years ahead on addressing it. When someone gets on Tumblr or a talking-head TV channel and says something particularly stupid, the left is getting better at shouting down the idiots. The most recent case in point is the idiocy about "Baby It's Cold Outside" this year where some young nutjobs who lacked historical context raised a big fuss about the song but within a few days we had pushback from more moderate liberals by both providing historical context demonstrating that the song didn't mean what the kids thought and also telling the kids to stop acting outraged over something that didn't matter. Within the liberal camp, there's a lot of this happening these days. Some group will get wound up about something stupid and everyone else will throw wads of paper at them and tell them to sit down and stop being stupid.


This is why we can't get anywhere. You say that our representatives on the larger stage are homophobes, racists, misogynists, adulterers, and bigots. Disagreeing that homophobia is a lifestyle to be celebrated does not make me phobic. I see it through a moral lens. And just because the media frames a person as a racist, bigot or misogynist does not make it so. Trump, for instance, has hired women for many huge building projects in a business dominated by men.The head of the CIA is a woman. That's not misogyny. And media makes just about everything sound racist. Cop shoots a kid with a gun? That was because the cop is racist. As far as adultery, I don't like it, find it immoral, and would prefer to have leaders that are not. Pence is not an adulterer; rather, he takes great strides to prevent himself from falling in to that temptation. So then the media castigates him for those precautions. We just can't win.

And I would not say that you are better about shouting down the idiots. There is some pretty silly stuff coming from newly elected congress people, and some wild stuff posted on twitter. And the left seems to be pretty comfortable letting death threats and vile insults to our president stand.
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Re: Will Dems cut deal to tilt Speaker's race?

Postby willbird » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:38 am

Mustang380gal wrote:
williaty wrote:More than that, the belief that every human has the fundamental right to control what happens to his or her own body is every bit as important to liberals as the idea that gun ownership is a fundamental right is to conservatives. No one on here wants to move towards California's model of gun control. Why on earth do you think liberals would like the current laws around abortion which, in most states, are worse than California's laws on guns?


The baby (latin: fetus) is not the mother's body. It has its own DNA, and half of the time is not even the same biological sex that the mother is. I'm a NICU nurse, and have seen 23 week babies survive and be healthy enough to go home. And many see this issue as a moral issue. Killing of humans is wrong (except in cases of self-defense and war); killing a baby in utero is neither self-defense nor war. Therefore, killing a baby in utero is wrong.

American conservatives have let their worst elements dominate their voice in the national conversation for the last 30 years. By not shouting down the most extreme elements on the right, your public image has become that of the worst people in your camp. Since Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich, the right has let the homophobes, racists, misogynists, adulterers, and bigots be their representatives on the national stage. When you fail to silence the people who claim to speak for you and speak horrible things, you let yourselves be painted with the same brush. You (the collective you), by failing to object loudly, clearly, and repeatedly when horrible (note that I DON'T mean that they're horrible because they're conservatives, all of them have serious moral failings personally), Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and Mike Pence (and so, so many others) claim to be supported by you, you ensure that the rest of the world views you as supporting the things bad people do. When the president is on tape bragging about sexual assault, every conservative has a moral obligation to stand up and say "That is not a conservative value!" and boot the criminal out of the party. When an advisor to the president is a white supremacist, every conservative has a moral obligation to stand up and say "That is not a conservative value and is not a Christian value." and boot that person out of the party. However, the right has currently decided that party unity and strength is more important than living up to moral values. Until that changes, the rest of the world is going to perceive the average American conservative as part of the problem.

The left has a big problem with this too but I think we're a few years ahead on addressing it. When someone gets on Tumblr or a talking-head TV channel and says something particularly stupid, the left is getting better at shouting down the idiots. The most recent case in point is the idiocy about "Baby It's Cold Outside" this year where some young nutjobs who lacked historical context raised a big fuss about the song but within a few days we had pushback from more moderate liberals by both providing historical context demonstrating that the song didn't mean what the kids thought and also telling the kids to stop acting outraged over something that didn't matter. Within the liberal camp, there's a lot of this happening these days. Some group will get wound up about something stupid and everyone else will throw wads of paper at them and tell them to sit down and stop being stupid.


This is why we can't get anywhere. You say that our representatives on the larger stage are homophobes, racists, misogynists, adulterers, and bigots. Disagreeing that homophobia is a lifestyle to be celebrated does not make me phobic. I see it through a moral lens. And just because the media frames a person as a racist, bigot or misogynist does not make it so. Trump, for instance, has hired women for many huge building projects in a business dominated by men.The head of the CIA is a woman. That's not misogyny. And media makes just about everything sound racist. Cop shoots a kid with a gun? That was because the cop is racist. As far as adultery, I don't like it, find it immoral, and would prefer to have leaders that are not. Pence is not an adulterer; rather, he takes great strides to prevent himself from falling in to that temptation. So then the media castigates him for those precautions. We just can't win.

And I would not say that you are better about shouting down the idiots. There is some pretty silly stuff coming from newly elected congress people, and some wild stuff posted on twitter. And the left seems to be pretty comfortable letting death threats and vile insults to our president stand.


Lots of people are not what I call "thinking" people. There are SOME libs that know that a fetus is a human being, and are ok with murdering it if the mother decides to....but the majority really do not acknowledge an abortion as the death of a human being.

I'm pretty consistent too, I think execution is murder too, but I see the utility of it for some offenders.


Bill
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Re: Will Dems cut deal to tilt Speaker's race?

Postby schmieg » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:58 pm

willbird wrote:Lots of people are not what I call "thinking" people. There are SOME libs that know that a fetus is a human being, and are ok with murdering it if the mother decides to....but the majority really do not acknowledge an abortion as the death of a human being.

I'm pretty consistent too, I think execution is murder too, but I see the utility of it for some offenders.


Bill

Murder is a legal term. Execution is a homicide, but a legally justified one. Murder is a homicide that is not legally justified and which generally has a knowingly or intentionally mens rea requirement. Manslaughter is a homicide that is not legally justified and which generally has a negligence or reckless mens rea requirement. Before someone asks, "mens rea" is a legal term for state of mind.
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Re: Will Dems cut deal to tilt Speaker's race?

Postby 7V8 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:55 pm

willbird wrote:
....but I see the utility of it for some offenders.

Bill


Reminds me of the quote attributed to Gen. James Mattis (retired) as he addressed 200 Marines in al Asad in 2006: ''The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event. That said, there are some a**h***s in the world that just need to be shot.'' :wink:
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Re: Will Dems cut deal to tilt Speaker's race?

Postby willbird » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:34 pm

schmieg wrote:
willbird wrote:Lots of people are not what I call "thinking" people. There are SOME libs that know that a fetus is a human being, and are ok with murdering it if the mother decides to....but the majority really do not acknowledge an abortion as the death of a human being.

I'm pretty consistent too, I think execution is murder too, but I see the utility of it for some offenders.


Bill

Murder is a legal term. Execution is a homicide, but a legally justified one. Murder is a homicide that is not legally justified and which generally has a knowingly or intentionally mens rea requirement. Manslaughter is a homicide that is not legally justified and which generally has a negligence or reckless mens rea requirement. Before someone asks, "mens rea" is a legal term for state of mind.


That is a matter of terminology. To me of you strap a guy into old sparky, walk him onto a gallows, hook him up to an IV, the person who ends his life is murdering him or her. That person has the comfort that the state has sanctioned the murder. But so does the abortionist :-).

Self defense or warfare, or LEO doing their job is different IMHO than just walking a person into a room and killing them the %^$# to death as an intentional act.

:-). Depending on the person and the crime I might pull the switch myself, but I would not volunteer to just pull the switch because the state said the person should be killed.

Bill
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