Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

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Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby EricTheBald » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:04 am

Background first, or the question won't make sense:
=============================================

1995:
I have an incident in Mogadore, up near Akron, where someone tried to hurt me and I convinced him not to by pointing a gun at him and telling him to stop. I may have been less than polite about it but he stopped, there was no injury to anyone and naturally, I ended up getting convicted of Aggravated Menacing for defending myself. Non-violently. You know what they say... Life's rough, buy a helmet.

2008: (Note: May have been early 2009. I cannot be certain)
I got my first Ohio CCL. Now, that's too long ago to remember exactly what the booklet and application said, but I do recall wondering if my Agg.Men. conviction was going to be an issue. This was shortly after Domestic Violence became a disqualifier and I knew I was OK there since I'd never done that. I also seem to recall that there was a 3-year limit on some misdemeanor offenses, but I can't be sure because I can't find any old application forms. Anyway, I called the Sheriff's office in Lancaster (Fairfield resident) and asked. To put it bluntly, I didn't want to put that much time into the paperwork if I was only going to get turned down anyway, but the Sheriff's office assured me that I was not disqualified. (Obviously, based on the law at that time)

So I finally got my CCL over a month later and then I've renewed it at least once and I think maybe twice because 2008 to 2019 is 11 years.

26 April 2019:
I got a registered letter of denial for renewal and two boxes were checked:
  • The box for "Result of background check", which referenced that Agg.Men. from 1995.
  • The ""Falsification of Application" box, which apparently means that I have theoretically committed a felony.


Yes, obviously I need a lawyer. Except that they're all at the convention in Indiana.


The reason I'm posting is this...

The situation APPEARS to be that the law changed in such a way that a previously NON-Disqualifying event has become disqualifying, but I can't be certain because not even the AG's office seems to keep the historical records of the law.

So, two questions:

1) Does anyone here happen to have copies of the handbook and/or application that would have been in force in 2008?

2) Has anyone ever seen a similar situation occur to either themselves or someone they know and would be willing to share their experience?
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby JustaShooter » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:58 pm

I'm not sure that you should have been denied the renewal. The section of ORC 2923.125 that appears to apply is (D)(1)(f)
Except as otherwise provided in division (D)(4) or (5) of this section, the applicant, within three years of the date of the application, has not been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor offense of violence other than a misdemeanor violation of section 2921.33 of the Revised Code or a violation of section 2903.13 of the Revised Code when the victim of the violation is a peace officer, or a misdemeanor violation of section 2923.1211 of the Revised Code; and has not been adjudicated a delinquent child for committing an act that if committed by an adult would be a misdemeanor offense of violence other than a misdemeanor violation of section 2921.33 of the Revised Code or a violation of section 2903.13 of the Revised Code when the victim of the violation is a peace officer or for committing an act that if committed by an adult would be a misdemeanor violation of section 2923.1211 of the Revised Code.


Aggravated Menacing (2923.21) is a misdemeanor offense of violence as long as the victim wasn't a police officer (otherwise it is a felony). So, if the offense was over 3 years ago as you indicate, that shouldn't result in a denial.

You may be able to clear this up with a phone call...
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby EricTheBald » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:14 pm

Yes, I recognize that block of legal text!

Man, it's nice to know I wasn't imagining it.


I did call down to the Fairfield Co. Sheriff's office but Jeannine (sp?) was out today and won't be back until Monday.


I had thought they changed the law on me and rendered me ineligible, but now I'm realizing that the denial letter is quoting from the Handbook and the law on codes.ohio.gov seem to be up to date.


I'm starting to get the feeling that the office has been using the Booklet as guidance instead of the actual law.

On the one hand, that would make me happy because I should be able to correct the problem easily.

On the other hand, if I am correct, then we're talking "can open, worms all over the place".



The letter says:

"The law states that you must not be under indictment, be charged
with, or convicted of any felony. You also must not be under
indictment, charged with, or convicted of an offense that involves
trafficking in drugs, a misdemeanor offense of violence, or negligent
assault. You may not obtain a license if you have been charged with
falsification of a concealed handgun license
."

Then it references ORC 2901.01 General provisions definitions.

(A) As used in the Revised Code:
(9) "Offense of violence" means any of the following:
(a) A violation of section 2903.01, 2903.02, 2903.03, 2903.04, 2903.11, 2903.12, 2903.13, 2903.15, 2903.21, 2903.211, 2903.22, 2905.01, 2905.02, 2905.11, 2905.32, 2907.02, 2907.03, 2907.05, 2909.02, 2909.03, 2909.24, 2911.01, 2911.02, 2911.11, 2917.01, 2917.02, 2917.03, 2917.31, 2919.25, 2921.03, 2921.04, 2921.34, or 2923.161, of division (A)(1) of section 2903.34, of division (A)(1), (2), or (3) of section 2911.12, or of division (B)(1), (2), (3), or (4) of section 2919.22 of the Revised Code or felonious sexual penetration in violation of former section 2907.12 of the Revised Code;



2903.21 Aggravated menacing.

(A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family. In addition to any other basis for the other person's belief that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family, the other person's belief may be based on words or conduct of the offender that are directed at or identify a corporation, association, or other organization that employs the other person or to which the other person belongs.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, aggravated menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the victim of the offense is an officer or employee of a public children services agency or a private child placing agency and the offense relates to the officer's or employee's performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, aggravated menacing is a felony of the fifth degree or, if the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to an offense of violence, the victim of that prior offense was an officer or employee of a public children services agency or private child placing agency, and that prior offense related to the officer's or employee's performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, a felony of the fourth degree.

(C) As used in this section, "organization" includes an entity that is a governmental employer.
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby WhyNot » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:39 am

BTW welcome to the forums :)

Hopefully yours is a quick easy solution :!:
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby EricTheBald » Fri May 17, 2019 4:34 pm

Quick update...

It's still kind of dragging on.

Lawyer hired, appeal filed, etc...

As of today, they can't even find my name in the system even though we filed within the appeals period.


Bottom line:
The Black Letter Law is both very clear and on MY side. It's actually quite explicit. Unfortunately, I may have to spend quite a bit of money to convince that CCL office to actually follow the law. I am currently wondering how much it's going to cost me to convince a law enforcement office to actually follow the law.

Complicating the issue is that the person running it is, or so I'm told, one of the people responsible for training other offices. What worries me is that it could end up being an issue of ego, as in the office not wanting to admit an error.



Yes, I know... Life's rough. Buy a helmet.
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby carmen fovozzo » Sat May 18, 2019 6:16 am

I’m curious. Did u call the police first or did your attacker call first ?
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby EricTheBald » Sat May 18, 2019 8:44 pm

My attacker called first.

For reasons that I still don't understand, it never occurred to me that he'd run to the cops after he started the mess.

Hindsight, right?
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby carmen fovozzo » Sun May 19, 2019 6:58 am

Educated attacker. Always ASAP.
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby EricTheBald » Wed May 22, 2019 11:05 am

Got a call from my Attorney yesterday, letting me know that the Prosecutors office agreed with our position in the appeal and they notified the Sheriff's office.

Got a certified letter from the Sheriff today letting me know essentially the same thing.

Called down to the CCL office here in Fairfield and asked when I could pick up my renewed license but was told that it's still being entered into LEADS and they would call me when it was ready. Hopefully they won't be too long doing so.


In my mind it's not really over until I have my card, but it does seem like that will be sooner rather than later.


In retrospect I think that perhaps a poorly designed/worded question on the renewal form led both myself and the person running the CCL office into a misunderstanding.

Looking back I find myself wondering the following...

  1. Aggravated menacing is basically the making of a threat but it is considered a crime of violence. Which seems odd given that there's no actual violence involved. If there were, the charge would be Assault, wouldn't it?
  2. If the disqualifier is supposed to be for domestic violence, shouldn't the form make a distinction between a that and regular Agg.Men?
  3. Why does the form ask a question about something that either isn't disqualifying or is disqualifying only for specific subset of actions? Shouldn't it focus on those things that actually ARE disqualifying?
  4. Finally, why is anyone who works in a law enforcement capacity of any kind using a guide-book as a legal resource rather than the actual ORC?


It seems to me that both the questionnaire and the handbook should be looked at with an eye towards eliminating confusion, not causing it. But that's just my opinion.
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby WhyNot » Thu May 23, 2019 6:33 am

How is the Sheriff going to handle your legal fees...that you should not have accrued
Acquisitions thus far:

-Slingshot
-Butter knife
-Soda straw and peas
-Sharpened pencil
-Newspaper roll
--water balloon (*diversionary*)

Yeah, I'm that good
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby EricTheBald » Tue May 28, 2019 11:29 am

Frankly, I'm not going to waste my time asking.
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Re: Renewal Problem - Anyone else have this experience?

Postby steves 50de » Tue May 28, 2019 2:47 pm

EricTheBald wrote:Frankly, I'm not going to waste my time asking.
That is up to you,... but a pound of flesh from someone's behind would be nice. :twisted:
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