Lifetime prohibition?

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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:03 pm

dday222 wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
dday222 wrote:not unless youve had your rights sealed, expunged, or restored including restored by operation of law. Again please read U.S.C 921(g)(20)

921(g)(20) only applies to a miniscule subset of felonies.
I already mentioned having your rights restored, but I'll admit you've brought up something new. What is having your rights "sealed" or "expunged" and how would either of those things possibly help?


Sorry I meant U.S.C 921(a)(20) My whole point is just because you have a f4 in Ohio which could result in sentencing of greater than a year does not guarantee you are disabled on state or federal level.

Almost 100% of the time it does. The exclusions under 921(a)(20) only apply to "offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices". Ohio has dozens upon dozens of (non-violent/non-drug related) felonies that are outside those exclusions.

dday222 wrote:As far as the record sealing that would obviously be the best way to go if possible.


Sealing a record is not enough to restore gun rights. You have to at least have the record expunged. This is also noted in U.S.C 921(a)(20) .
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby dday222 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:19 pm

Ok lets try this way 20 yrs ago I was convicted of a f4 felony. I petitioned cuyahoga county court for a restoration of rights. The conlusion of that case goes like this."The only ground upon Petioner seeks relief from this Court is the fact of his prior felony conviction. However,Petioner's conviction does not prevent him[pursuant to R.C 2923.13(A)(2)] from having or carrying a firearm. As Petitioner is not entitled to the relief he seeks, the State of Ohio respectfully requests that this Court dismiss the application without hearing."

Now this is under 1m of the tax stamp form I had to fill out to get my suppressor.

EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a frearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdication where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or setaside,or the person has hadtheir civilrights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public ofce) taken awayand later restoredAND (2) theperson isnot prohibited bythe law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing frearms. Persons subject to this exception should mark “no” in the applicable box.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:24 pm

dday222 wrote:Ok lets try this way 20 yrs ago I was convicted of a f4 felony. I petitioned cuyahoga county court for a restoration of rights. The conlusion of that case goes like this."The only ground upon Petioner seeks relief from this Court is the fact of his prior felony conviction. However,Petioner's conviction does not prevent him[pursuant to R.C 2923.13(A)(2)] from having or carrying a firearm. As Petitioner is not entitled to the relief he seeks, the State of Ohio respectfully requests that this Court dismiss the application without hearing."

Now this is under 1m of the tax stamp form I had to fill out to get my suppressor.

EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside,or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should mark “no” in the applicable box.

You would have to mark "Yes" since 1) does not apply to your situation. Both 1 AND 2 must be true for you to mark "No", and from your description your conviction has not been expunged or set aside. And, as I understand it, sealing is not the same as expungement so you may well be up a creek since Ohio no longer expunges convictions. And, you may not have a proverbial paddle as well, since it sounds like you may have provided false information on a Federal form...
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby dday222 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:35 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
dday222 wrote:Ok lets try this way 20 yrs ago I was convicted of a f4 felony. I petitioned cuyahoga county court for a restoration of rights. The conlusion of that case goes like this."The only ground upon Petioner seeks relief from this Court is the fact of his prior felony conviction. However,Petioner's conviction does not prevent him[pursuant to R.C 2923.13(A)(2)] from having or carrying a firearm. As Petitioner is not entitled to the relief he seeks, the State of Ohio respectfully requests that this Court dismiss the application without hearing."

Now this is under 1m of the tax stamp form I had to fill out to get my suppressor.

EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside,or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should mark “no” in the applicable box.

You would have to mark "Yes" since 1) does not apply to your situation. Both 1 AND 2 must be true for you to mark "No", and from your description your conviction has not been expunged or set aside. And, as I understand it, sealing is not the same as expungement so you may well be up a creek since Ohio no longer expunges convictions. And, you may not have a proverbial paddle as well, since it sounds like you may have provided false information on a Federal form...



I would have to mark no because as soon as the case closed I was relieved of disability ( civil rights) were restored under operation of the law. You cannot have something restored which was never lost. I didnt provide false information I did exactly what was asked of me
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:18 pm

Sounds like neither the judge nor prosecutor understood that federal disqualfiers include charges beyond what are considered disqualifiers spelled out in Ohio law and your application didn't make that clear.

dday222 wrote:I would have to mark no because as soon as the case closed I was relieved of disability ( civil rights) were restored under operation of the law.

Nope. 2923.13(C) "For the purposes of this section, "under operation of law or legal process" shall not itself include mere completion, termination, or expiration of a sentence imposed as a result of a criminal conviction."
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby dday222 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:06 pm

DontTreadOnMe wrote:Sounds like neither the judge nor prosecutor understood that federal disqualfiers include charges beyond what are considered disqualifiers spelled out in Ohio law and your application didn't make that clear.

dday222 wrote:I would have to mark no because as soon as the case closed I was relieved of disability ( civil rights) were restored under operation of the law.

Nope. 2923.13(C) "For the purposes of this section, "under operation of law or legal process" shall not itself include mere completion, termination, or expiration of a sentence imposed as a result of a criminal conviction."


I guess the Cuyahoga County prosecutor is wrong and you are right. R.C. 2923.13(1-5) Is what disables people in the state of Ohio. Show me the statute that says all f4 felonies are disabling.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:20 pm

dday222 wrote:I guess the Cuyahoga County prosecutor is wrong and you are right. R.C. 2923.13(2)(3)(4)(5) Is what disables people in the state of Ohio. Show me the statute that says all f4 felonies are disabling.


I already did. It's the federal statute 18 USC 922(g)(1):
"It shall be unlawful for any person—"
"who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
"to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

ORC 2929.14(4) states "For a felony of the fourth degree, the prison term shall be six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, or eighteen months."

Therefore it shall be unlawful for any person convicted of any Ohio felony of the fourth degree (or higher) to possess any firearm or ammunition (that has affected interstate or foreign commerce ... which is all of them).

ETA: Seriously, ask a Mod nicely to delete this whole thread and get yourself a lawyer. I'm not kidding.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby JustaShooter » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:50 pm

dday222 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
dday222 wrote:Ok lets try this way 20 yrs ago I was convicted of a f4 felony. I petitioned cuyahoga county court for a restoration of rights. The conlusion of that case goes like this."The only ground upon Petioner seeks relief from this Court is the fact of his prior felony conviction. However,Petioner's conviction does not prevent him[pursuant to R.C 2923.13(A)(2)] from having or carrying a firearm. As Petitioner is not entitled to the relief he seeks, the State of Ohio respectfully requests that this Court dismiss the application without hearing."

Now this is under 1m of the tax stamp form I had to fill out to get my suppressor.

EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside,or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should mark “no” in the applicable box.

You would have to mark "Yes" since 1) does not apply to your situation. Both 1 AND 2 must be true for you to mark "No", and from your description your conviction has not been expunged or set aside. And, as I understand it, sealing is not the same as expungement so you may well be up a creek since Ohio no longer expunges convictions. And, you may not have a proverbial paddle as well, since it sounds like you may have provided false information on a Federal form...



I would have to mark no because as soon as the case closed I was relieved of disability ( civil rights) were restored under operation of the law. You cannot have something restored which was never lost. I didnt provide false information I did exactly what was asked of me

No, you are wrong. You were prohibited at the Federal level due to the F4 even though it did not place you under disability under Ohio law. You were not relieved of your disability under operation of law when the case was closed - you have run into one of the catch-22s that exist in the restoration of rights world. Ohio doesn't consider the crime you were convicted of as removing your firearm rights, but the Federal government does. Since Ohio doesn't consider it a disabling offense, they can't restore your rights, even though it carries a Federal prohibition, so you are still prohibited under Federal law. You need to retain a competent lawyer well-versed in both Ohio *and* Federal firearms law, like Derek DeBrosse. Good luck.

Also, as been noted by DontTreadOnMe, you really should ask to have this your posts and their replies deleted since you've admitted to a Federal crime.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby dday222 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:03 pm

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
dday222 wrote:I guess the Cuyahoga County prosecutor is wrong and you are right. R.C. 2923.13(2)(3)(4)(5) Is what disables people in the state of Ohio. Show me the statute that says all f4 felonies are disabling.


I already did. It's the federal statute 18 USC 922(g)(1):
"It shall be unlawful for any person—"
"who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
"to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

ORC 2929.14(4) states "For a felony of the fourth degree, the prison term shall be six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, or eighteen months."

Therefore it shall be unlawful for any person convicted of any Ohio felony of the fourth degree (or higher) to possess any firearm or ammunition (that has affected interstate or foreign commerce ... which is all of them).

ETA: Seriously, ask a Mod nicely to delete this whole thread and get yourself a lawyer. I'm not kidding.



18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20) 
(20) The term "crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year" does not include - 
(A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business 
practices, or 

(B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less. 

What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby djthomas » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:16 pm

We can (and have) paste sections of various laws back and forth til the cows come home. In two sentences or less, what exactly is the point being made here?

Since the OP hasn't come back to engage in further discussion despite being online hours after the responses started coming I think this thread has about run its course.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby DontTreadOnMe » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:00 pm

dday222 - You keep referring to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20) as if that makes a difference but it doesn't apply to you. You weren't convicted of a misdemeanor so subpart (B) doesn't apply, and unless your F4 was for an antitrust or other anti-trade practice then subpart (A) doesn't apply to you either (if it does great and you're fine). The final paragraph also doesn't apply to you since your conviction wasn't expunged or set aside, you weren't (as far as you've mentioned) pardoned and your rights weren't restored.

djthomas - The basic answer is as it always has been. A fourth degree felony or above = lifetime prohibition unless you get the charge expunged (not sealed) or your rights restored. For any greater detail than that a person should talk to a lawyer.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:51 am

The State in dday222's case used the theory of "there is nothing to restore since nothing was taken".

That theory held (and sucked) until 2011 when HB54 expanded rights restoration to include "other factors" in addition to indictments, convictions and adjudications. After that, you could apply for relief from more vague or esoteric scenarios.

Having a court dismiss a restoration hearing IS NOT the same as having your rights restored.

dday222's original disability is still in effect, whether or not he/she chooses to believe the folks here who have been doing this work for years.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby Westsider » Thu May 30, 2019 11:15 am

JustaShooter wrote:
dday222 wrote:Ok lets try this way 20 yrs ago I was convicted of a f4 felony. I petitioned cuyahoga county court for a restoration of rights. The conlusion of that case goes like this."The only ground upon Petioner seeks relief from this Court is the fact of his prior felony conviction. However,Petioner's conviction does not prevent him[pursuant to R.C 2923.13(A)(2)] from having or carrying a firearm. As Petitioner is not entitled to the relief he seeks, the State of Ohio respectfully requests that this Court dismiss the application without hearing."

Now this is under 1m of the tax stamp form I had to fill out to get my suppressor.

EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside,or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should mark “no” in the applicable box.

You would have to mark "Yes" since 1) does not apply to your situation. Both 1 AND 2 must be true for you to mark "No", and from your description your conviction has not been expunged or set aside. And, as I understand it, sealing is not the same as expungement so you may well be up a creek since Ohio no longer expunges convictions. And, you may not have a proverbial paddle as well, since it sounds like you may have provided false information on a Federal form...



dday222 is correct.

EXCEPTION: A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside,or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should mark “no” in the applicable box.[/quote]


Exception for pardoned/expunged OR rights restored (being able to sit on a jury, being able to vote) AND if not prohibited by the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred.

So if he has the right to vote, sit on a jury trial AND is not prohibited from ownership at the state level- then he can answer "No". It doesn't say he has to be pardoned and civil rights restored it says OR, so either one is true.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby JustaShooter » Fri May 31, 2019 6:15 am

Westsider wrote:dday222 is correct.

Sorry, no. His *felony* conviction was never sealed or expunged. Under Federal law, his firearm rights were stripped. They were never restored. He remains a prohibited person under Federal law since he still has a felony on his record that was never expunged or sealed, *nor were his rights restored under Ohio law because they were never removed under Ohio law*. Yes, you can be prohibited under Federal law without being prohibited under state law. It's one of those catch-22 situations that exist because of the mess the feds and states have made out of (arguably unconstitutional) firearms laws.
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Re: Lifetime prohibition?

Postby techguy85 » Fri May 31, 2019 10:08 pm

JustaShooter wrote:
Westsider wrote:dday222 is correct.

Sorry, no. His *felony* conviction was never sealed or expunged. Under Federal law, his firearm rights were stripped. They were never restored. He remains a prohibited person under Federal law since he still has a felony on his record that was never expunged or sealed, *nor were his rights restored under Ohio law because they were never removed under Ohio law*. Yes, you can be prohibited under Federal law without being prohibited under state law. It's one of those catch-22 situations that exist because of the mess the feds and states have made out of (arguably unconstitutional) firearms laws.

I believe that JustaShooter is actually correct here, for what that is worth. But hey, go on believing what you want. We won't be the ones potentially going to prison someday and wondering why.
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