background checks.

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bhess
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background checks.

Post by bhess »

Someone help me out here. When I purchase a new handgun through an ffl licensed dealer, the background check takes less than 5 minutes. If the federal government says that I have a legal right to own a handgun through their own background checks, why does Ohio feel the need to ask for all this information and check with each county in order to proceed? Wouldn't the federal check be enough? It just seems like a waste of resources to go through all this stuff to get essentially the same answer as a federal check gives. Also is this something that will in the future be presented to ohio to expedite the process of obtaining a CCW?


Thank you for any answers you provide.


-Bill Hess
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Re: background checks.

Post by JustaShooter »

The difference is that in Ohio, there are restrictions to getting your concealed handgun license that don't disqualify you from owning or purchasing a firearm. So, it's not "essentially the same answer" in all cases.
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Re: background checks.

Post by mreising »

But wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to ask permission in either case?
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bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

I got ya.


I dont think it would be THAT nice, that would mean any average serial killer can just go up and buy a gun. I love my guns, keeping them out of the wrong hands is the only way we're going to be able to keep them in OUR hands.
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Re: background checks.

Post by Tweed Ring »

Historically, our criminal underclass has purchased their weapons on the black market. They do so now, avoiding the background checks through shadow purchases, through purchases and loans from their criminal counterparts, or through theft. They will do so in the future.

A criminal once told me he would buy his firepower at retail prices when he bought his getaway vehicles from car dealerships.
bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

That does make sense.
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: background checks.

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Also while the two are checking the same thing, they are checking them totally different. I'm always amazed the anti's haven't attacked the way NICS works.

When you purchase a firearm from an FFL your info is run through NICS. NICS is a database that contains information from the FBI, the mental health system, and III (criminal history sent to the state of all 50 states). When the FFL calls you in, they run your info based on (I believe just these fields) name, date of birth, height, weight, race, and social. Many of those records have aliases, some nowhere near the main name. That's where people get delayed on occasion. It's a match based on descriptors that can change. It also does not include arrest data not submitted to the state level. If it stays in a mayor's court or county level court only (basically not fingerprinted), NICS will never know it exists.

Now, when you apply for a CHL (and I'll use after March 23, 2015) it will go through the above AND also include going through county level courts as you put your past addresses on the application and they may contact those counties (I've always wondered if they do or not.) The biggest difference between the two is the addition of fingerprints. Fingerprints are much harder to fake than an ID card you present to an FFL. When they run one through BCI for state and FBI for federal, it is done on fingerprints and not name data. Fingerprints are running about 90 minutes now to complete and return a response.

What shall be interesting to note is that prior to March 23, one could have a homicide conviction in Kentucky and get a CHL in Ohio as long as they have lived in Ohio for over 5 years. After March 23, that will no longer be possible. They wouldn't be able to purchase a firearm, but they could get a CHL.
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bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Also while the two are checking the same thing, they are checking them totally different. I'm always amazed the anti's haven't attacked the way NICS works.

When you purchase a firearm from an FFL your info is run through NICS. NICS is a database that contains information from the FBI, the mental health system, and III (criminal history sent to the state of all 50 states). When the FFL calls you in, they run your info based on (I believe just these fields) name, date of birth, height, weight, race, and social. Many of those records have aliases, some nowhere near the main name. That's where people get delayed on occasion. It's a match based on descriptors that can change. It also does not include arrest data not submitted to the state level. If it stays in a mayor's court or county level court only (basically not fingerprinted), NICS will never know it exists.

Now, when you apply for a CHL (and I'll use after March 23, 2015) it will go through the above AND also include going through county level courts as you put your past addresses on the application and they may contact those counties (I've always wondered if they do or not.) The biggest difference between the two is the addition of fingerprints. Fingerprints are much harder to fake than an ID card you present to an FFL. When they run one through BCI for state and FBI for federal, it is done on fingerprints and not name data. Fingerprints are running about 90 minutes now to complete and return a response.

What shall be interesting to note is that prior to March 23, one could have a homicide conviction in Kentucky and get a CHL in Ohio as long as they have lived in Ohio for over 5 years. After March 23, that will no longer be possible. They wouldn't be able to purchase a firearm, but they could get a CHL.


That's interesting. If it only takes 90 minutes I guess I should call lorain county and ask them what the hold up is. :P
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Re: background checks.

Post by Liberty »

I respectfully disagree with bhess. Convicted serial killers don't get out of prison. Serial killers who have not yet been caught, tried and convicted can pass the same background check that you can pass.

I always cringe when someone says they want the government to keep guns out of the wrong hands because the government gets to decide who has the wrong hands. The government right now is Barack Obama. Who do you think he thinks have the wrong hands? Global warming deniers? Tea Partiers? Christians? Former active U.S. military? Republicans?

There is no evidence that firearms bans on people with prior criminal records does anything to reduce crime. People are convinced all the time for felon in possession of a firearm. The only thing that those bans accomplish is a false sense of security and the perpetuation of the myths of the legitimacy of gun control leading to total disarmament of the public. No matter what restrictions are imposed upon those previously convicted of crimes, some will secure weapons and harm others with them. Then the only recourse is to remove firearms from society so the bad people, that the government released from prisons, cannot possibly get firearms. It is a trick to disarm us!

The framers of our republic knew this would happen. They saw it happen in Europe. That is why the constitution does not authorize the government to infringe on anyone's right to have and carry arms, which included firearms, knives, clubs and armor. It specifically prohibits it. In order to deal with crime, the constitution authorizes the government to deprive citizens of life, liberty and property while exempting arms. In other words, the government can imprison or execute people for committing crimes, but a free person cannot be deprived of the human right to self defense, i.e., the right to have and carry arms. I know that the courts have ruled otherwise, but this is what the right meant when it was ratified by the states, and the only legal way to change it is by constitutional amendment.
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Re: background checks.

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

If a criminal has been released from jail or prison, why should they be denied the right to keep and bear arms?

Are they now less deserving of the right to protect themselves? Statistically speaking, I believe most "criminals" live and work in what most would consider the "bad parts of town".

Crime is not the fault of the gun, it is the fault of the person.

Is it possible for a citizen with a criminal record to commit a crime again? Of course. But it is also possible for a law-abiding citizen to become a criminal.

A citizen with a gun who IS NOT COMMITTING A CRIME should not be deprived of rights based on crimes for which they have been adjudicated.

The risk is simply a cost associated with a free society.
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Re: background checks.

Post by JediSkipdogg »

bhess wrote:That's interesting. If it only takes 90 minutes I guess I should call lorain county and ask them what the hold up is. :P
That's why I've always wondered why some take so long to do it. Once you do the fingerprint scan they hit submit. They have the results back the same day. It will never take overnight unless you have some terrible prints that have to be manually examined. It takes at tops 10 minutes to do the LEADS entry and another 10 to probably print the card. The process SHOULD be extremely fast. The only way I could see it not being fast is if they are going a step further and checking county court records in each county you lived in hunting for stuff that may not be on your BCI record. They could also delay it if they decide to take the letter of the law where it states the Sheriff shall issue and making the head Sheriff actually sign off on each application and not a designee.
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Re: background checks.

Post by Tweed Ring »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:If a criminal has been released from jail or prison, why should they be denied the right to keep and bear arms?

Are they now less deserving of the right to protect themselves? Statistically speaking, I believe most "criminals" live and work in what most would consider the "bad parts of town".

Crime is not the fault of the gun, it is the fault of the person.

Is it possible for a citizen with a criminal record to commit a crime again? Of course. But it is also possible for a law-abiding citizen to become a criminal.

A citizen with a gun who IS NOT COMMITTING A CRIME should not be deprived of rights based on crimes for which they have been adjudicated.

The risk is simply a cost associated with a free society.
That's a question I often ask my peers. People who are released from prison can register to vote but typically do not vote. Once someone is released, why doesn't various levels of government restore these rights as well? I'm not for it; I tend to be cautious.
bhess
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Re: background checks.

Post by bhess »

these are all great points. I never put it into these perspectives, eye opening to say the least.
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Re: background checks.

Post by Six Shooter »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:If a criminal has been released from jail or prison, why should they be denied the right to keep and bear arms?
Because of legitimate concerns ?


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Re: background checks.

Post by Liberty »

by Six Shooter » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:33 am

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
If a criminal has been released from jail or prison, why should they be denied the right to keep and bear arms?

Because of legitimate concerns ?
If someone cannot be trusted with a firearm, he/she should not be free. Why would we trust them with a knife or bow and arrow or a car? These are great offensive weapons. Firearms are great defensive weapons. Moreover, such prohibitions have not ever been effective at actually keeping bad people from obtaining firearms.

The "legitimate concerns" are thinking errors resultant from the propaganda spewed from the television. The constitution provides a remedy; imprison or execute them. The same people who support ways to release violent criminals are the ones supporting firearms bans on them. Common sense clearly indicates that such bans will not prevent violent people from committing violent acts, so the next logical step is to remove all firearms from society because that is the only way to keep them away from the bad people. Then we will have an unarmed society and ripe for enslaving. This had happened over and over again. See Death by "Gun Control" (http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). We need to wise up and stop believing myths propagated on the television through false arguments, selective reporting, and false dramatizations.
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