Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law**

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This sub-forum is strictly for the purpose of submitting of, and status updates related to, ORC 9.68 compliance. This could mean park bans, open carry bans, or anything that is a compliance issue. Note the format in which original threads were created. We'll track each individual case here and post updates if assistance is needed, etc. You may start a new thread here to notify us of a non-compliant scenario. Please try to research contact information for each city, village, etc, Email, fax, and postal addresses are great. Digital photos of infractions (Signs) are ideal. With limited exceptions this is NOT a discussion forum.

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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby BB62 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:51 pm

Various things were underlined, bolded, or sized differently below in the e-mail I sent, but I didn't take the time to make what's posted appear identical to it

**Ms. Haley** – please forward this communication, which includes a LEGAL NOTICE, to the Prosecutor


Paul Schmid & Paul Kamphaus,

I’m writing to both of you (copying in the office manager of the Clermont County Prosecutor’s office, Jennifer Haley) to address the fraudulent claim that the Clermont County Agricultural Society is a private entity and that the Fairgrounds are private property - as well as some other chicanery.

I’m also writing to give all recipients (both direct & indirect) of this e-mail **LEGAL NOTICE ** that, if the so-called ‘No Guns” signage (example attached) is not removed by closing time on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, and the Sheriff’s Department and its employees are not properly informed of Ohio law regarding firearm carrying at the Fair, I will enter the Fairgrounds on Friday, July 26, open carrying one or more sidearms, including into buildings. (ORC 2923.126 only addresses *concealed* handgun carry in government buildings, and ORC 9.68 is pre-emptive and addresses open carry)


How we got to this point:

1) Three Sheriff’s deputies (Deputy Summers, Sgt. Baarlaer, and Corporal Cooper) told me this past weekend that 1) the Fairgrounds were private property, that NO GUNS were allowed on the grounds at the request of the “private property owners”, and that a refusal to leave the grounds would result in being charged or arrested for criminal trespass. Among other things, I and each of the officers went back and forth with claims of the fairgrounds being private versus public property.

2) On Saturday, in a phone call initiated by Sgt. Baarlaer, he told me that “we” (presumably the Sheriff’s Department) have been pushing them (clearly meaning the Ag. Society) for five years to post signs, but the Society had refused, citing “zealots”. I asked Baarlaer if “zealots” were people who expected the law to be followed – to which he had no answer.

3) At the Fair on Sunday, Paul Schmid, Ag. Society Director and attorney at law, told me that 1) the Fairgrounds were private property, and 2) the signs were posted at the request of **the Sheriff’s department**.

4) Today, Captain Kamphaus told me that the **Clermont County Agricultural Society** posted the signs of their own volition!

5) Despite prior claims by Summers, Baarlaer, and Cooper, neither Mr. Schmid or Corporal Cooper could address why it was that a resolution (though illegal as applicable to firearms) on the table of contents page of the Fair booklet was in direct conflict to the “NO GUNS” policy as claimed. (see attached picture)

6) Corporal Cooper told me that Captain Kamphaus had been in contact with the Prosecutor’s office. Captain Kamphaus told me the contact was made in order to determine the proper charge to levy (ORC 2911.21) against a gun(s) carrier who, after being requested to do so, failed to leave the “private property” of the Fairgrounds.

7) Etc., etc.

I could go on and on, but it’s apparent to me that one or more individuals/departments/entities listed above, while also possibly being incompetent and/or ignorant of the law, are prevaricating – aka LYING.


To directly address the matter of the claimed “private property” nature of the Fairgrounds and the Clermont County Agricultural Society I suggest the following, for a start:

1) Contact Mike Walker, Deputy Auditor of the Clermont County Auditor’s office. He will tell you that the Fairgrounds are owned by the Clermont County Agricultural Society, and are tax exempt due to ORC 5709.10. Now, either the Agricultural Society has been perpetrating a tax fraud, or it fits into one of the categories enumerated in the just mentioned ORC section, thus: “…property used as a county fairgrounds that is owned by the board of county commissioners or by a county agricultural society, …, which property is hereby declared to be public property…” http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/5709.10 (Exemption of public property)

2) Contact Crystal Jones, Chief Auditor in the Southwest Ohio Office of the Ohio Auditor of State (OAS), who will tell you that the Agricultural Society is indeed a governmental entity (aka ‘political subdivision’) in her geographical audit area. I’m sure she will also be glad to share with you past audits of the Agricultural Society, which are conducted every two years (unless, as has been the case the past two times, “Agreed Upon Procedures” have been approved by the OAS). She will also tell you that the next audit will be conducted for the period December 1, 2017 – November 30, 2019, per ORC 117.114: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/117.114

3) You can see the following on the OAS website: “The Auditor of State is the constitutional officer responsible for auditing all public offices in Ohio, which encompasses more than 5,900 local governments, agencies and organizations.” https://ohioauditor.gov/financial.html

4) You can determine under what part of the ORC the Ag. Society was established under, and will no doubt find that it’s under ORC Chapter 1711, where you can read the numerous subchapters to your heart’s content: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/1711 (Agricultural corporations, amusement rides)

5) You can read the Ohio Supreme Court case Greene County Agricultural Society v. Liming, where, among other things, you’ll find “A county agricultural society is a political subdivision pursuant to R.C. 2744.01(F).“ https://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs ... io-486.pdf

6) You can examine the current version of Ohio’s firearm preemption law, ORC 9.68, and the version which will be put in place in December, 2019: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68v1 http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68v2

7) You can read the court case Cleveland v. State, which upheld ORC 9.68 as a general, preemptive law: https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/ROD/d ... o-6318.pdf

8 ) You should also recognize that the Fair Board, as a political subdivision, is subject to Ohio’s open records law: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/149.43


Paul Schmid - since you’re an attorney as well as a Director of the Agricultural Society, all the above tasks ought to be no problem for you. I can’t speak for Clermont County Prosecutor Faris, but I’m sure he’ll have no problem with the legalities of the subject matter either.


If, by some chance, any recipient (direct or indirect) of this e-mail finds my legal conclusions or research to be lacking, let me know ASAP. Otherwise, I expect the signage to be removed and the appropriate law enforcement officers enlightened on 1) the law regarding gun carry, and 2) the law regarding gun carry as it applies to the Fairgrounds.

On a separate but related subject, the Fair Board does have the power, under ORC 2923.126 (B) (7), to allow concealed carry in the Fair buildings, and I think that would be a wise and worthwhile thing to do. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126



Cordially,

BB62
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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:28 pm

Outstanding work, BB62!
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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby 3FULLMAGS+1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:39 pm

Sooooo.....you gonna pay them a visit MWSY ?
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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby BB62 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:08 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I have Wednesday off if you need me to go get arrested.

ETA: I don't bluff.

Check your PMs.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby BB62 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:41 am

Phil1979 wrote:Were you refused entry? To force their hand you could go in concealed, then switch over to open carry in a restroom stall out of sight. Then refuse to leave or disarm. That could get you arrested, but if you are sure of a win, you would have even more reason to sue them.

No, on Sunday we were not refused entry. We were also not carrying firearms.

Sunday was a day for talking and recording. Yesterday was for research and e-mail writing. Tomorrow - who knows?
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby Brian D. » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:49 am

Talking to their Auditor's office was a good call for another reason. Back in 2004, Hamilton County Sheriff Simon Leis made license issuance needlessly inconvenient. You had to make THREE trips downtown, where parking is the most difficult and expensive area of the city. My opinion is that he felt only two types of people should be allowed to carry guns: Marines (he'd been one) and cops who had been Marines.

Anyway, after the first statewide license stats we're published, I took a copy to our County Auditor Dusty Rhodes, and explained the problem. He must have had a talk with the Sheriff about lost revenue, because a month later Leis streamlined the process, only two visits needed.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby docachna » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:29 pm

Sounds as if this ridiculousness is all flowing downhill from The High Sheriff hisself. His minions, from the Undersheriff on down, have little choice but to follow orders, notwithstanding their own personal opinions.

I am guessing that now that you have thrown down the gauntlet, there will be a quick scurrying by the county to regroup. It is possible that they may propose some sort of compromise, which I have the funny feeling you will reject, as you probably should. End of the day, I do not see a county prosecutor advising the sheriff that he is on solid ground with this nonsense. They’ve got nuthin’..... :x
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Followup note received

Postby BB62 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:28 am

Wednesday morning (7/24/19) I received the following e-mail from Paul Schmid, a Fair Director and attorney (though not the Ag. Society's attorney), and one of the people I previously communicated. He copied in Captain Kamphaus of the Clermont County Sheriff's department, as well as the office manager for the Clermont County Prosecutor's office:

Dear Mr. Smith—

At the outset, I want to reiterate that I am participating in this exchange exclusively within my agency as the gates committee chairman and director (board member) of the CCAS (with responsibility for admissions policy, among other things) and specifically not as an external legal representative of the society.

Although I am an Ohio attorney (#86699) I am not retained and have never been retained to represent the society, its executives, employees or personnel in this matter or any matter. My legal perspectives here are merely those of a single informed board member. In short, with respect to the standards of ethical conduct in Ohio I consider this to be principal-to-principal communication, although I would certainly welcome interaction with your attorney as necessary. We are presently unrepresented in this matter. Please do however consider this my personal acknowledgement, at least, of your previous below—it was received and carefully considered, at least by me.

I have copied the same county officers here merely for continuity—this message is for Mr. Smith directly.

I would also like to thank you at the outset for your courtesy throughout this controversy—and in particular for your notice with respect to your intentions. In particular, I note that you have picked the least obstructive effective date and time for your planned actions, which I personally appreciate and take as a gesture of good faith.

I would like clarification, if you are willing, with respect to those intentions.

First, I am especially concerned that you may choose to enter buildings on the grounds. I would like to know, if you are prepared to say, which buildings you intend to enter. I am asking because, as you may be aware, different structures on the grounds operate under different legal arrangements, potentially exposing any unlawfully armed entrant to a series of liabilities of which they may not be totally informed—it would be difficult for anyone to fully brief all the possibilities here. Our “Ag Building” houses state and federal agency market-rate lessors—including the extension subsidiary of our state university—and independently posts signage prohibiting carry, citing federal code; our “commercial building” and grandstand exhibit area houses short term rentals for the duration of the fair; our “fair board office” hosts both paid and volunteer staff and independent contractors, none of whom are classified for the purpose as government employees; our animal areas, the boundaries of which are hazy, operate within the regulatory requirements and supervision of the US and Ohio Departments of Agriculture and house populations of vulnerable and potentially hazardous livestock and large numbers of even more vulnerable children; our midway hosts stationary and mobile vendors operating under specific concessions and leases from the society; certain tenant improvements on the fair are classified as fixtures, some are not; a nexus of private and public contracts and relationships touches every blade of grass and crowing rooster and deep fryer on our property. In short, it would be helpful to better understand the gist of your actions so that we can make any potential interaction between us predictable and as clear as may be.

Second, I wanted to be certain to ask you, in sincere good faith, if you would perhaps consider suspending your planned activities for this week, in lieu of three considerations.

First, our security policies at the fair this year are part of a strategy to address some ongoing and specific security concerns of importance to me, us, and the officers serving us. I think you would share them too. Although you are absolutely within your rights to pursue this matter as you see fit, I would truly appreciate your cooperation with those priorities at this time. I hope you will take that request into your calculus. I would be glad to discuss this point with you in person.

Second, I was struck by the somewhat unusual situation presently existing with respect to ORC 9.68. As you know, a clearer and more robust version of that statute will be implemented on December 28th of this year. My perspective is that that change may have a material effect on our policy at that time, and subsequently for next year’s fair. You may find our policy more satisfactory then, and if not your position may be enhanced by the new language. The change may even moot the effect of your planned activities this year.

Third, very sincerely, (and as much as my fellow members of the bar might protest!) I would personally prefer to have a strong and ongoing relationship with you and your organization, working together toward the appropriate management of this difficult legal area, rather than becoming adversarial opponents in state or federal court, prosecuting discovery, depositions, motions, administrative hearings, and the like. You are plainly not alone in feeling that our new policy was the wrong one. But instead of ultimatums and confrontation or capitulation we would far rather host you at a public (or private) meeting, hear your concerns, take them under advice, and perhaps craft a better solution for all involved.

I await your response, and come what may I will continue to prepare in good faith for your planned activities on Friday.

Very Cordially,

Paul Schmid, Gates Committee Chairman, CCAS
Paul A. Schmid, Esq.
Last edited by BB62 on Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Response to followup note

Postby BB62 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:43 am

My response to the above note:

Paul Schmid, Captain Paul Kamphaus, Prosecutor Faris, and the Clermont County Commissioners,


Paul Schmid:

First, thank you for your note. To say I’m shocked is a huge understatement.

A little tidbit: Tuesday I got a call from the Director of Ohio Gun Owners, because he’d become aware of my communications with you and others in Clermont County. I told him that I appreciated his call and offer of help, but that I expected the matter would be resolved in its entirety by Wednesday. I told him that you were an attorney (though as expected, not the Ag. Society’s attorney) and given that fact, your work background, and the impeccable legal footing I’m on, the Ag. Society would say that the signs would be coming down, and Captain Kamphaus would let it be known that only *actual* gun law violations would be enforced. I’ve received no such communications.

Instead you’ve failed to acknowledge that the Agricultural Society is a *public* entity (aka “political subdivision”), that the Fairgrounds are indeed *public* property, and that both being the case, the ‘no guns’ signage would be removed promptly in compliance with Ohio law.

Regardless of the validity of your security concerns, you should recognize that current law and judicial precedent are to be worked WITH, not around.

Although you aren’t representing the Agricultural Society, you’re still an attorney who has taken an oath to support the Ohio and Federal Constitutions, and the laws under those Constitutions. BUT, you seem willing to take part in law breaking for convenience. At a minimum, you could have forcefully raised the issue at the daily (during the Fair) Director’s meetings.


Captain Paul Kamphaus,

As far as I’m concerned, your failure to address my assertion of the inapplicability of the criminal trespass statute with respect to legal firearm carry at the public property which is the Clermont County Fairgrounds is extremely disturbing. It’s especially so in light of my Monday evening voicemail suggestion that you hold off formally informing your officers of the law until you had an opportunity to check with the Prosecutor regarding the contents of my Monday night e-mail.


Prosecutor Faris,

One wonders how seriously you take your oath of office that you are mute in the face of current circumstances.


Paul Schmid, Captain Kamphaus, Clermont County Prosecutor Faris, Clermont County Commissioners Corcoran, Humphrey, and Painter,

Whatever happens Friday, I want to congratulate all of you for making Clermont County the poster child for firearm preemption reform. Your willingness to delay, engage in or countenance subterfuge, unlawful activity, and/or threats of police action speaks volumes.

Your collective arrogance will help me and others make a strong case with state-level officeholders that public officials, including law enforcement, need to be held firmly and personally responsible when they knowingly toy with an individual’s firearm rights or privileges, time, treasure, or freedom. I will work vigorously to ensure that Ohio follows the example set by states such as Kentucky and Florida.

Blithely ignored in all this is a recognition that it would be best for all involved, especially citizens legally going about their business at the Fair, that the law is actually FOLLOWED rather jointly justifying any means to reach a desired end.

Silence and/or inaction in the face of illegality is complicity.



See you Friday!



BB62
xxx-xxx-xxxx


P.S. – the Fair’s “no colors” rule wouldn’t withstand a First Amendment challenge
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby WhyNot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:04 am

Ahh yes yes. Sausage making at OGA, salad making at these local venues. Heard it before, ''lettuce think on obeying the law, but, later''

Plain screwdriver, ratcheting screwdriver, cordless drill screwdriver...pick one; just how long does it take to remove a few signs? Two screws on this one, four on another? Three minutes per sign, including the memo sound extra fair (pun intended, but it was an afterthought hehe)?
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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby docachna » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:03 am

Postpone and prevaricate.

What a surprise.
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Re: Response to followup note

Postby Cruiser » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:12 am

BB62 wrote:

P.S. – the Fair’s “no colors” rule wouldn’t withstand a First Amendment challenge

Where can I find their "Rules" Yes I have been searching.
P.S. Good job.
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Re: Response to followup note

Postby BB62 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:02 pm

Cruiser wrote:
BB62 wrote:
P.S. – the Fair’s “no colors” rule wouldn’t withstand a First Amendment challenge

Where can I find their "Rules" Yes I have been searching.
P.S. Good job.

They don't exist online that I've been able to find.

Thank you.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby Gramps » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:55 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I have Wednesday off if you need me to go get arrested.

ETA: I don't bluff.


MWSY You are one heck of an asset to OFCC! Thank you!
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Re: Clermont County Sheriff encourages fair to **violate law

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:36 pm

Gramps wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I have Wednesday off if you need me to go get arrested.

ETA: I don't bluff.


MWSY You are one heck of an asset to OFCC! Thank you!


Thanks, Gramps. Unfortunately, I had to work AND was sick the last couple days.

When I saw Knox county was also having an issue, I was kind of looking forward to a twofer.
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