380 acp chrono findings and questions

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suedenflames68
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380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

After finally getting a chronograph to the range I'm left somewhat disappointed with my loads and with lots of questions.

I have poor ES and SD on my reloads compared to factory ammo I tested.

Tested pmc 115gr 9mm in 2 guns. ES was 33 in both and SD was 9.8 for one and 10.5 in the other.
This was 50 rounds split between the two.

Blazer 380 had ES of 57 and SD of 19.5
This was about 30 rounds.

Hornady american gunner 380 was more interesting and scary.. only ran 6 through just to see what they did. Resulted in the following fps:
946 923 925 955 937 519!!
These would have been good numbers except for that 519. I believe it accurate too, as I checked for a lodged bullet in barrel after shooting that one, it felt so weak.

How do improve my ES and SD?

Improving those means more accuracy, correct?

Is poor ES and SD numbers just a product of that particular powder not being happy in that cartridge at that load amount?

As an excellent comparison to the hornady factory ammo with xtp90gr bullet I made rounds with the same bullet. 4.6 gr of power pistol.
ALL charges weighed out on a hornady auto charge.
All matching head stamps on brass
Same overall length
Average 946fps
High 980
Low 901
Es 79
SD 24.6

Obviously throwing out what was apparently a defective round at 519 fps from the hornady factory ammo, it had an ES of only 32 vs my 79 ES handloads.

These were some of my best ES and SD numbers on my reloads too.

Same xtp90 gr and 4.2 gr power pistol gave somewhat better numbers:
Average 889
High 921
Low 861
ES 60
SD 17.4
Still only about as good as the worst factory ammo I tested.

3.4gr of power pistol 95gr Montana gold gave me:
Average 739
High 777
Low 712
ES 65
SD 18.7

I realize talking about trying to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of 380 for carry pistols is not a huge concern, but it applies to my other loads as well. My 380 loads were also my BEST performers for ES and SD numbers.

With the exception of my longshot 454 casull loads (82 ES) everything else I made had ES over 100. These are all loads that I had settled on thinking they gave me best performance and accuracy in testing without a chronograph.

Appreciate all input. Would like to improve my handloads and understanding. Thanks

James
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by Mr. Glock »

Just as general background, remember to keep the chrono at least 10 feet from the muzzle for pistols, a little further for rifles with muzzle brakes, in order to help reading accuracy (sometimes the blast can affect some chronos). Plus, sometimes the sun/indoor bright lights can cause altered readings if hitting the chrono at different angles, so always good to run all ammo through at one time. Some chronos just seem to suffer from both those issues, so I mention them.

Hornady American Gunner gave me a few ignition issues in 38 SPL. I suspected the fifing pin was out of specification (it ended up being a little bent and thus short), but the primers were a little low too. I did contact Hornady to find out the difference between American Gunner and Custom. Mostly because they load a 125 XTP in AG, and the 158 XTP in Custom. AG is loaded as bulk ammo, with less inspections than Custom. If you are going to carry the XTP in 380 for self-defense, considered a good choice (and thus might be for 38SPL too), well worth it to buy Custom.
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suedenflames68
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

Good to know on the hornady ammo. I was carrying it, but after that experience, and the fact that it suffers from bullet setback from chambering, I think I'll feel better carrying my handloads or something else.

I guess I should have specified on the chronograph. It's a labradar, not a traditional style that blast and light can effect. This was my first time using it at the range, but it seemed to be working properly.

James
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by Morne »

While I have NEVER loaded .380, and compared to a lot of reloaders I am just a novice, let’s talk about your crimp.

How do you crimp? How firm of a crimp do you use? I am a BIG fan of a rather firm crimp. I also worship at the altar of the Lee factory crimp die.

Yeah, you can probably achieve tighter velocity ranges than what you reported. Might be you need a different primer. Or a different powder. Or both. It seems like you are set on this particular bullet in this particular cartridge so play with the other parameters.
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suedenflames68
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

Morne wrote:While I have NEVER loaded .380, and compared to a lot of reloaders I am just a novice, let’s talk about your crimp.

How do you crimp? How firm of a crimp do you use? I am a BIG fan of a rather firm crimp. I also worship at the altar of the Lee factory crimp die.

Yeah, you can probably achieve tighter velocity ranges than what you reported. Might be you need a different primer. Or a different powder. Or both. It seems like you are set on this particular bullet in this particular cartridge so play with the other parameters.


I still have a few hundred xtps and a few thousand of the Montana golds, so will use em up , but in the future , who knows.

I use the lee FCD as well. I crimp so its .0005-.001 smaller than the diameter around the bullet. Right about their 1/2 turn they say.

Using cci pimers


I guess that's probably what it's down to though, changing components.

Only other things I thought about was trimming brass to make sure all uniform for consistent crimp, and doing the primer pockets. Would be incredibly silly for my 380s, but maybe for other calibers. But I really dont want all that work and doesnt seem like I should have to do all that for decent numbers. Maybe fun as an experiment, but definitely not all the time
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by jeep45238 »

Make a lot of 10 rounds, going from minimum to maximum charges by the book (I usually do it in .2grain increments).

Shoot groups for all, take notes. Verify FPS and data crunch after the groups are proven.
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

That could be a good thought also.... starting over on the load workups. Bad thing is I'm way out of practice and not nearly as good as I was when I developed these loads by groupings.

But, perhaps I wasnt as good as i thought back then and the good groupings were just chance.






Should a load that has good ES and SD numbers be a guarantee of accuracy? And bad numbers should widen groups?






I have a good amount of the 95gr plinker loads and they arent TOO bad of numbers. I'll probably leave those as is. They are quite nice to shoot in my p238.

The higher velocity xtps I would like to improve and my other calibers I tested need improvement I think.


I guess the really funny thing is that the 380s were my best ES numbers and those were really based on workups for recoil, function ,and book velocities as they are shot from short barrel carry guns.

My larger calibers(45acp and 38special) for 1911s and my 6"686 were developed by workups for groups at 50' and 75' and they have horrible (ES >100) numbers.

James
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by jeep45238 »

ES and SD aren't guarantees of accuracy, it is an indicator of consistency and efficiency though. That's why a focus on accuracy, and then verification of FPS, working with crimp+OAL as well, to dial in your load.

The easiest way is to do your charges from scratch and do a scientific method on target, otherwise there's no reason to do anything.

Pistol loading is relatively straight forward, and I've never trimmed a single piece of straightwall pistol brass. I'm more inclined to believe that there's an inefficient powder charge or powder selection at play over anything else given your info.
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suedenflames68
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

jeep45238 wrote:Make a lot of 10 rounds, going from minimum to maximum charges by the book (I usually do it in .2grain increments).

Shoot groups for all, take notes. Verify FPS and data crunch after the groups are proven.
That's my exact method as well... minus I didnt have the ability to check fps before now.
jeep45238 wrote:ES and SD aren't guarantees of accuracy, it is an indicator of consistency and efficiency though. That's why a focus on accuracy, and then verification of FPS, working with crimp+OAL as well, to dial in your load.



For my 38 loads I'm using 158gr berrys and 4.0gr win231

45 load is 230gr zero fmj and 4.6gr win231

Those were what I noted as my most accurate charge weights when I went through the test rounds for those 2 loads.

I'll have some fun and try running through some test rounds again and see what the numbers look like. And see if the same loads still group the best for me. Maybe compare different primers in em too. I believe it's quite possible ill have trouble even hitting the target out at 25 yards now tho :? I think I was really hoping small ES =good groups for that reason
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by jeep45238 »

I've never found primers to make much of a difference in pistols, except for extremely tightly built guns (completely custom, very expensive), and possibly ransom rests. Overall length, charge, bullet weight, and crimp have mattered far, far more than primers. 100 yards on a C zone target is pretty easy these days with a red dot on a pistol, using no special techniques or components.

Are you sure the powder drop is giving a consistent charge each time?
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

Yeah , using the auto charge hornady dispenser. Last loading session I even weighed a bunch of charges from it on a mechanical scale. Also tried my Lee powder drop and compared against built in e scale on the hornady unit and mechical scale to see what it was throwing and check for differences.

I weighed and double checked (or triple checked) around 100 charges.

So Extremely confident in the charges.

After that I used the Lee drop for the 3.4gr charge in the 380 plinker ammo loading in bulk to speed things up. The 65 ES was from that batch.

All the 38 and 45 ammo was loaded using the autocharge dispenser cause those are my "accurate" rounds. ... with 100+ velocity spreads...

Seems like that 231 is popular powder in those calibers, even seen those exact loads mentioned in forums after I arrived at them.

Really makes me think I'm doing something wrong, but I sure don't know what it is. Without going crazy and loading like it's for precision rifle don't know what else could be missing in my procedures. I'm all ready a bit on the extreme side for pistol loading it seems compared to most from what I read.

I've weighed and measured the 230 zero bullets a while back, but forget how far they varied. Didn't seem like much at the time but perhaps it was more significant than I realized.

I wonder how much bullet variance is considered too much?

I used up the last of my berrys for the 38 so I need to find a new bullet to try for that. Checked cabelas when I was there and were sold out....but did go home with a new 9mm 1911 :D


Got good supply of completed 38 and 45 rounds for now, even if they aren't ideal, and the new 9mm needs fed. So I think I'll apply your suggestions and load up some test rounds for 9mm in several different powders and see what the chrono numbers and groups look like. The 9mm rounds I made for my glock are too long and don't plunk in the new gun.

James
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by jeep45238 »

My gut feeling is a powder that isn't the best fit for that caliber. You mentioned powder pistol, and I took a moment to look at my Lyman manual (Pics below). Lyman hinted at Bullseye for 90grn FMJ and W231 for 95grn FMJ for accuracy (bolded the powder and max charge data = accuracy potential). They never hinted at Power Pistol ;-)

One thing I really like about the Lyman manual, is they indicate potentially accurate powders for each bullet weight, and they bolded W231 as the most likely accurate powder for pretty much every .380 listing.

The trend I noted for Power Pistol was more of a charge than W231, at more pressure, and less FPS than it as well in mid weight bullets, and it not being for accuracy at any bullet combo. To me that says it's a poor choice for that cartridge. W231 seems to be very versatile in the 9mm-.45 caliber cartridges, including .38SPL. It's the powder I use due to flexibility, price, accuracy in most calibers I load, and economy of charge - a goldilocks powder for me, that I can get bulk discounts on :-)

Sorry about the rotated images, but feel free to print them off and rotate as needed.


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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

Thanks. That actually makes me feel rather silly. When I first got into reloading a few years ago I recall seeing the info being noted about the accurate powders. After I read through and studying my lyman, hornady and lee manuals when I started, i now just get in them to compare data. Forgot about the accuracy noting.

When I was load testing for the 380 I had some loaded up with 231 also and they seemed good as well. Honestly decided on the power pistol to try to use it up.

I really liked the 231 in 38 and 45 and wanted to save it for those. And have tried loading power pistol in 9mm and 40 and 45, and dont really like the results much. Just seem much snappier on recoil than factory ammo. So sitting with a jug of power pistol and not prefering it in anything, it became my 380 powder.

That's one of the things I am looking forward to doing with the chronograph. Seeing if the precieved extra recoil i have in everything with powerpistol is really the result of velocity or not. That and longshot has some crazy book velocities that I want to see if are real or not.

I think I'll be learning a lot with this new tool.

James
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by Morne »

suedenflames68 wrote:...to try to use it up.
This is normal. My most commonly loaded .45 ACP recipe right now is one using WSF, even though I think I prefer W-231 in it. So why am I using so much WSF? Easy, I got a pile of it in a lot deal and need somewhere to use it up.

I have been testing a LOT of powders in a LOT of cartridges. I figured that if we ever got back to a time of reloading component shortage then all the data I had generated would be helpful to make sure that I can keep on loading/shooting. No W-231 on the shelf? No problem, I have loads worked up with Bullseye and Accurate #2. That kind of thing.
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Re: 380 acp chrono findings and questions

Post by suedenflames68 »

I have several powders already that I want to try working up in now that I have the chrono.
Already have: w231, longshot, powerpistol, autocomp, 296, 800x, mp300, and probably some others I cant recall.
Kinda wanting to get some others to try too that look like they are favored on the interwebs in some of the calibers I have: bullseye, titegroup, Clay's, maybe unique.

Guess it's never ending and just about infinite the combos one could test and try searching for the best results.

James
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