CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

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Morne
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CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Morne »

So I recently got a new (to me) Taurus Gaucho in .357/.38 for use in CAS. Took it out to shoot with some of my reloads and had a failure-to-ignite at least once each cylinder load. Thus, I got worried that I had bought a lemon.

Then I tried some factory loads (Federal American Eagle cheapo stuff). It ignited those flawlessly for 100+ rounds. Then I started to question my reloads, not that I had previously experienced problems with this load.

So, I ran those misfired rounds through my new (to me) Rossi M92. They all fired, though one took a second (third) hit to do so. So now I'm thinking that I put the rounds together right, but maybe my primer selection might be wrong.

I suspect that my Gaucho has had its action worked on in the past and as such has a slightly lighter trigger than typical. Thus, hitting the primers not quite as hard as it otherwise might and allowing some of the CCI-500 SPPs to remain unignited.

Am I right that CCI primers tend to be harder? Should I attempt to increase the force of the hammer fall on the revolver or should I just switch to Federal primers?
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by JimE »

Over the years I have heard that about CCI and Winchester primers.
In my 1911's, the only times I had it occur was with a light sear spring or hammer spring. A deep primer pocket can give you fits as well.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by BigV »

I experienced the same problem using CCI primers and my wife's S&W Model 60 revolver. I had the gun modified for a lighter trigger pull for my wife.
The rounds that would not fire in my wife's revolver shot fine out of my S&W MDL 640.
My assumption at that point was the lighter springs caused the misfires. I replaced the springs with a little stiffer ones and have not had a problem since.
Another item to check is to make sure the primers are fully seated in the pocket. I have found that this too can lead to misfires. The first misfire usually seats the primer fully and the second try fires without issue.
Just something to consider.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by BobK »

I would first check your primer seating. Many people that are relatively new to handloading will seat the primers flush with the bottom of the case. They do not realize that primers need to be pressed in about 0.003-0.005" below the bottom of the case.

Your fingertip is an amazingly sensitive instrument. If you run a fingertip across a box of commercial ammo, you will feel the slight indent at each primer. If your handloaded ammo feels like the primers are similarly seated, then the seating depth is probably OK. That is when I would start looking at hammer spring strength and primer hardness.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Brian D. »

For years it was a well known fact that CCI primers were the hardest to ignite. Federal were the softest from what many of us experienced, everything else was pretty much in between.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by evan price »

Federal is the last and only remaining user of the old style priming compounds that are more energetic and easier to ignite. It's why Federals are the choice of tuned guns.
CCI uses industry standard primers and I've never had a problem with a properly setup gun igniting them.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by JustaShooter »

Brian D. wrote:For years it was a well known fact that CCI primers were the hardest to ignite. Federal were the softest from what many of us experienced, everything else was pretty much in between.
As I understand it, that is still the case. I'm not sure if CCI uses a slightly thicker cup or what the difference might be, but on a regular basis I see reports of CCI being harder to ignite (always with guns with lighter springs) in various other forums.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Sevens »

Exactly what Brian D said and I have seen -ZERO- evidence that this has changed.

A bit ago, I found myself attempting to recapture my youth when I cam across a pre-Model 10 that some phenomenal craftsman did a full PPC job upon. Now I did NOT shoot these in my youth (you had to be sworn LE to compete in PPC) but local cops came to our sportsman club EVERY weekend to shoot matches and I watched 'em. Most everyone was running a K or L-frame with the full menu. Huge, heavy barrel, Aristocrat sight rib, full action job, bobbed hammer, and usually the Pachmayr SK-G grip. (this is where my fascination with Pachmayr found it's roots)

Anyway, I bought this revolver and it's smooth as butter and until you've handled, dry-fired and shot a full done PPC Smith & Wesson, then, well, you simply don't know. But I knew before the first range trip that there was a darn good chance that I would see some light-strike FTF's because I run CCI primers exclusively and anyone who loads for a custom-rubbed Smith & Wesson runs Federal primers. Jerry M. runs Federal primers.

So I arrived at the range day with an ace up my sleeve. As most of these custom guys cut down the strain screw so it will bottom out at the "right" amount of tension, I simply brought the screwdrivers I would need and a dead small primer cup sans anvil. To band-aid a shortened strain screw, you can place a primer cup between it and the main spring and tighten it down and you are back in business.

What I found? I was correct and with my CCI-primered ammo, I got 1-2 FTF's per cylinder.
I was also correct with my band-aid fix and I slipped it in there after trying just 3 cylinderfuls and I ended up putting 400 rounds through the revolver that day without a single other failure.

However...
It was simply not the right fix. It worked perfectly well but it added pressure to the main spring and offered more resistance in the trigger pull. For sure, it was still miles better than all my other revolvers (none were close) but heck, some genius craftsman built this a certain way, and there was going to be a right way to make all of this work...

So I bought 4,000 Federal small pistol primers. Pulled the band-aid fix out and put the revolver back as the customizer had intended.

With my new Federal primed ammo, it runs 100% and it has a double action trigger pull that you cannot go out and buy pretty much anywhere, on anything.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Morne »

Scored a couple hundred federal small pistol primers and a pound of Trail Boss today at FFF. Ordered some bullets online, too. Will try new loads with new powder/primer/bullets and see how the Gaucho handles them.

I stared hard at the Remington 1.5 small pistol primers, too, but didn't buy them. Any thoughts on how those are on the hardness spectrum?
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Sevens »

I have no idea where Remington primers fit on that spectrum, but I do have a strong opinion on Remington across the board and it is not at all good. It is easiest to simply blame the Freedom Group, but I opt out of Remington -anything- when there are alternatives.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by dl1911 »

When a local gunsmith did a trigger job on my S&W Model 67 it had to go back because of light primer strikes (I use CCI). When lightening the trigger pull it also reduces the force of the firing pin or hammer hitting the primer. Too light a pull and it will have trouble with harder primers like CCI. I understand S&B ammo also tends to have hard primers. Half a pound heavier pull was much better to me if it would more likely work with all types of ammo and primers. Still got it to just over 10lb double action trigger and very smooth. When it developed problems with light strikes a few years later, I checked and just had to tighten (and blue loctite) the strain screw. Been solid again ever since.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by BobK »

Sevens wrote:... but I do have a strong opinion on Remington across the board and it is not at all good. . . . I opt out of Remington -anything- when there are alternatives.
I feel that way about anything Lyman.
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Sevens »

I don't own anything new from Lyman, but the absolute most loved and most important tool at my load bench is a Lyman 55, likely from the early 1980's. I wouldn't trade it for any other measure from any manufacturer of any type or color. Not even one of the buzzing gizmos.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Morne »

Tried some loads today with the federal primers and my revolver ignited ALL OF THEM WITHOUT FAIL. Just to be sure I wasn't hallucinating I ran some of my old CCI primed loads through it and again got failures to ignite. Took the dented CCI cartridges through the rifle, after giving each at least two hits with the wheel gun, and all fired fine.

Thus, it does seem that my Gaucho hits a little bit light. Federal primers are a viable solution.

Thanks for the help everyone!
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Re: CCI Primers too hard vs Revolver

Post by Sevens »

Two things to add to this development...

First is that it might be obvious or not, but it is worth noting that Federal primers are demonstrably easier to pop in the firearm, but on the press as well. I have done some horrendous squashing, crushing, and plain old corrupting of CCI primers and they are jaw-droppingly resistant to unintended discharge at the load bench. Although I have only been working with Federal Small Pistol for ~1,100 primers, I've run clean thus far but some of the things I have done to CCI primers over the year I somewhat expect to a poop-smearing -POP- on the press at some point. So be aware of this. In the past, some different tools I have worked with have suggested that Federal primers "may not be suitable" for use in their equipment for these reasons. Safety glasses always when priming.

The other thing is the Taurus Gaucho that is demanding the Federal primers. Now it's one thing (at least IMO) to have a custom crafted tool that very specifically shaves power from the mainspring/hammer spring for the sole purpose of smoothing up a double action trigger pull, but on a totally stock gun -- I would think this is something that should be addressed at the gun and not with the ammo or primer. Furthermore, while I'm sure it's a slight bit quicker or easier to thumb back the hammer on a single action revolver if you don't have to stack up quite as much weight, I can't see much of an advantage here to having a hammer that strikes lightly. On a double action revolver, you must use the leverage at the trigger and a long pulling distance to load that hammer, so reducing that spring weight is a tremendous advantage to the shooter. On a single action? All the work is done with your thumb and lightening that load doesn't provide much tangible benefit but the possible disadvantage of a failure to fire (if shooting competition) is tremendous.

I did a quick run to Wolff but it doesn't seem to list the Gaucho under available springs for Taurus revolvers. I'm not sure why that is... the Wolff site is typically able to find even extremely obscure guns and springs for them.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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