Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

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CoronaGold111
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Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by CoronaGold111 »

I plan to begin loading 45 Colt, 454 Casull, and 460 S&W. I currently have no dies for any of those calibers. I have a Lee press and usually buy Lee dies. What die sets must (or should) I buy? My current understanding is that I should have a 460 set and also either a 45 or a 454 set to load all three calibers. Comments? Thanks.
stephen45-70
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by stephen45-70 »

this can realy be a tough question ... a person would think you could just buy a .460 carbide die set and be done with it .
but if you look at the die specs you run into a slight problem or two .

the .460 actualy sizes the case down a smidge more then the .454 or colt .. not much only .001 or .002 i cant remember for sure ... needlessly over working your brass .
then you find you can not crimp either 454 or colt in the .460 die .

what i would do .... buy a .45 colt die set and then buy just a full lenght size die for the .460 .

this is assuming you plan on using a single stage press ..... if you plan on using a progressive , save your self a lot of time and buy a die set for each ... a little more money now will pay for its self in time spent setting up
glocksmith
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by glocksmith »

I'm going to guess at the answer since I've never owned one of these multi-caliber guns. I'm going to say absolutely not...as I've yet to see a one-size-fits-all reloading die. There is no way IMHO you could seat and crimp both a .45 Colt and .460 S&W on the same die...it's a length issue here not diameter. Someone else tell me if I'm wrong.
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stephen45-70
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by stephen45-70 »

well you are right ... it is mostly a lenght issue .

you can seat and crimp the .460 in the colt dies ... in most single stage presses you can back the die out far enough to make it work . the same with the expander die if you need it .
but the .460 die is to long to do the .454 or .45

i am goin to go out on a limb and hope that the op has revolvers or rifles of all three calibers .... using colts and 454's in a .460
never works out well .... it is so much simpler to just use the .460 case and download for plinking
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by Sevens »

Besides the (personally untested, but one I believe) idea that the .460 flare/seat&crimp dies are too long to actually work with a .45 Colt case, you end up doing a lot of die adjustment when switching between the two extremely different cartridges. More adjusting if you throw that .454 in the middle. In the end, if the quality of your handloads is a priority, you might come to the conclusion that much less radical adjustment translates in to boring repeatability, which... obviously, is what helps handloads the most: same, same, same every time.

So you end up sacrificing time, ease of use AND repeatability... for the chance to save a few bucks. And truly, it is a few bucks. Depending on how you shop, you can snag a set of Lee dies for what, like $25? And if you are a savvy shopper, you can find yourself an old used set of .45 Colt dies at a gun show for $5 or $10. And that's the secret. The old dies are NOT carbide dies, that's why nobody wants them, and that's EXACTLY why you want them-- they're cheap.

In a carbide die "set", only the sizing die is carbide. The flare die and seat/crimp die haven't changed. And if you buy a new carbide .460 S&W set, you can size .45 Colt brass with it, no problemo at all. That size die is long enough to do .460 in it, running .45 Colt in it and the die has no clue there is a difference. (this I -have- done, it works with no issue)

Now if you insisted on the shoestring budget arrangement, just to get the absolute most done with the lowest outlay of cash, with hassle be damned, then your method of attacking this situation is with the shorter dies. Much like you can load .357 Mag with .38 dies and you can load .44 Mag with .44 Special dies, you can do the longer stuff with the dies designed for the shorter case -- unless & until you run in to a SIZING die that doesn't offer the clearanace for l-o-n-g .460 case. The difference between 32/327, 38/357 and 44 Spl/Mag isn't great... the difference between .45 Colt and .460 Mag is tremendous. I will admit up front that I have never attempted to size a .460 Mag case with a .45 Colt die.

Now! With all that said...
:lol:
Many folks have found that the radical jump from a .45 Colt case thru the comically long cylinder of the .460 S&W Magnum just doesn't do any favor whatsoever to accuracy, or potential for accuracy. And let's not forget... .45 Colt run in it's original SAAMI fashion is going to send a slug out at the speed that Ace Ventura could catch in his teeth, while even a sedate .460 load is going to send a similar slug at WARP speed in comparison. What you end up with is a handgun that shoots the two loads to such radically different elevations that sight adjustments are going to be laugh-worthy. Unless you intend to hold a radically different point of aim, you may end up coming to the conclusion that while a .45 Colt "fits" nicely in the chamber and that it is 100% safe to be done... there's not a lot of quality shooting to be done from it.

I'm sure someone has experiences that counter these theories, but I'll still throw it out there. And if you run .45 Colt to the new, "modern" loads ("Freedom/Ruger ONLY") then you will close that gap somewhat, but there'll still be a gap.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
glocksmith
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by glocksmith »

As usual I agree with Sevens :D I really don't see any financial advantage at all to buying three different types of brass and three different dies. I'd just go .460 all the way and create some greatly reduced loadings for "plinking" ammo. I know that S&W has touted the versatility of their .460 being able to use three different cartridges, but IMHO using .45 Colt and .454 is only good as a last resort for people who don't handload and they are having trouble finding ammo during a shortage.
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stephen45-70
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by stephen45-70 »

sevens

you have pretty much hit the nail square on the head .

i do have some input on using .460 brass in .45 colt sizing dies as i went threw this myself .

you can easily neck size and a bit more in the colt die ... the biggest problem you run into is at some point in time if you shoot full loads you will want to full lenght resize ... the .460 is a high pressure cartridge and after a a couple firing you find that the case starts to swell a bit at the web and needs squeezed back down or it becomes a fight to get them in the chamber .

less then full loads ... youd never need to do more then neck size with a colt die
CoronaGold111
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by CoronaGold111 »

Well that is some good commentary and I thank you all for your input. It wasn't necessarily what I wanted to hear, but better I learn it here than through experimentation. I will be shooting 460 brass exclusively. Oh, by the way, who needs to buy some virgin star line 454 brass??? :)
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by Sevens »

Not long after the .327 Federal hit the market (all of you, STOP laughing at me! I love the little bugger! :P ) some folks began to tout the incredible "flexibility" of revolvers chambered in .327 Federal because they could shoot the 45k PSI barnburner round, the dang near HALF pressure .32 H&R Magnum round, the old school cool .32 Smith & Wesson Long cartridge and it's dinky brother the .32 Smith & Wesson cartridge. And for the goofs in the crowd, it's also "safe" in a pinch to shoot .32 ACP from a .327 Federal revolver. (though the brass simply doesn't cooperate upon ejection, so if you end up in a shootout flinging .32 ACP from a revolver, figure that you won't be reloading...)

Those are all possible...
But none of them make a heap of sense.

The .32 H&R Magnum was a much needed round that someone else should have constructed and marketed. In it's typical guise, it truly does NOT run what we have ever known as a "magnum" kind of pressure for a handgun round. At best, they should have named it the .32 Special. 21k CUP, it runs similar to a .38 Special. The .32 S&W rounds both run even less pressure and comparing them to the .327 Federal is very much like comparing .45 Colt to the .460 Magnum.

They'll fit!
They are safe!
They feel like squib loads and misfires...
They hit to different point of aim...
They have to make a LONG jump thru tunnel-like chamber to forcing cone...
Factory ammo is less available and due to economy of scale, you don't really save any (or much) money.

I can tell you that shooting full-bore .460 S&W Magnum is quite an experience. Truly blows my mind how well they designed the entire rig. The grip frame/size is SMALLER than the Smith & Wesson N-frame. It's the K/L size grip. And the compensator on the end is a miraculous device. This is a SIXTY FIVE THOUSAND psi max cartridge blowing out of that monster, but in my opinion, it's simply more enjoyable than a six inch .44 Magnum. And lemme tell you, it's far, FAR more enjoyable than .44 Magnum from a Ruger Blackhawk. That... SUCKS.

Perhaps part of what makes it fun is that you shoot five or ten rounds and you giggle about it and pass it around or put it away. But it's a heap of fun.

Wimpy .45 Colt from this massive platform... is just gonna seem anticlimactic, I think.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
glocksmith
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by glocksmith »

CoronaGold111 wrote:Well that is some good commentary and I thank you all for your input. It wasn't necessarily what I wanted to hear, but better I learn it here
You can take comfort in simply knowing that you could use the .45 and .454 if circumstances forced you to. Since your'e a reloader I don't see that happening. In fact I think S&W was mainly touting the potential versatility of the pistol...I doubt they'd recommend everyone do it though. It's a .460...that's why people buy them.

BTW, I don't think the OP has ever said what gun, or guns he had for the .460. I was just jumping to the conclusion that he had an X-frame revolver. :oops:
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CoronaGold111
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by CoronaGold111 »

Yes, it is the X frame Smith & Wesson. I have been shooting the 500 SW from a T/C Encore handgun for a few years. It is too much for a wus like me and I have heard that the XVS just handles the physics of the caliber so much better than a T/C or a BFR. So I finally took the plunge.
CoronaGold111
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by CoronaGold111 »

Another interesting tidbit I've picked up while researching 454 et. al. is that you only use Freedom Arms bullets or thick jacketed bullets in a fancy Freedom Arms 454 or you imperil the forcing cone. Anyone ever heared such a thang? I had always thought you could load rocks in a FA and launch it with dynamite and still hit the bullseye every time.
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by Sevens »

I don't know the specifics with regards to Freedom Arms and their suggestions/requirements, however, I do know that when you're building .460 Mag loads, you don't grab any old jacketed slug from the sales counter. In fact, you're supposed to use the "magnum" slugs that offer a thicker, more sturdy copper jacket. In .460, I've only yet loaded those offered by Hornady, and they are "magnum" specific slugs.

I had it shortly explained to me by the Alliant ballistician via e-mail...
Though my inquiry was with .327 Federal, the same theory applies. Basically, when you ask the jacketed slug to do the extreme that .460 is capable of, a cheap (thin) jacket will distort under the havoc of 65,000 PSI. Remember that a "regular" jacketed 452" slug was designed around a 20-25k PSI workload. The distortion of that thin jacket under pressure is what will damage the forcing cone.

I had been asking just how hard I can run a 71gr (.32 ACP) FMJ slug in a 40k psi .327 Federal load and the ATK guy was good enough to tell me that I could easily run it "fast enough" to ruin my GP-100. :oops:
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
stephen45-70
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by stephen45-70 »

this idea does not help you right now ... but a some times cheaper way to get hornaday xtp's ??? i think thats the right bullet
but its been so long since i thought about jacketed bullets i cant remember

after muzzle loader season ends and wally world and sporting good stores put the left over sabots on sale , buy up all the .50 cal hornaday sabots that are the weight you desire ... inside you'll find the same .451 dia xtp bullet .

the one time i did this i think i gave $3.50 per package of 20 sabots .
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Re: Handloading Dies 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W

Post by Sevens »

That would be a good deal, but no, those are exactly the opposite of the bullet I'm talking about. Those are the thinner jacketed slugs that shouldn't be pushed to the radical pressures of .454 Casull and .460 S&W Magnum.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
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