Lack of load data for copper plated bullets? ETA data pg4-6

[BobK]

The Lee Factory Crimp die for semiauto rounds crimps differently from the FCD for revolver rounds. One can get a proper roll crimp for .44 mag using the FCD. The only simplification offered by splitting seating and crimping is performing the process in two steps instead of one, which means it is slightly easier to set the COL and then play with various crimps.

I have produced revolver ammo using separate seating and FCD steps and I have also produced ammo using the traditional seating/crimping in one die. Both methods can work.

That said, I agree that your length is a bit off and the crimp is as well.

Here is a close-up picture of some .44 ammo I loaded. This roll crimp is unusually stout because they are 240 gr LSWC at 1500 fps (pretty stout). IIRC, I used the FCD for these rounds.

[Morne]

So...I'm too long then, right? Seat the cannelure most of the way into the case mouth and recrimp?

[evan price]

44 magnum max COAL is 1.610". That's max. I personally seat until the cannelure is where I like it and then as long as it fits the cylinder it's GTG.
I seat them so the crimp just allows the cannelure to peek over the roll crimp. I like a strong roll crimp like BobK shows. I don't use the FCD. I use a three-hole turret and crimp in the seater.

[BobK]

44 magnum max COAL is 1.610". That's max. . . .

Loads for the Keith design LSWC have to have a COAL above 1.610" if you are going to seat into the crimp groove. My rounds above are longer than that.

The key is whether your cylinder is long enough to seat the longer than spec loads.

[BobK]

I'm willing to go back and re-seat these bullets deeper if the hive mind thinks that's the right thing to do. Again, I'd rather push them in a little further and re-crimp than have to yank them apart and start all over.

Naw, I don't like pushing them in and re-crimping. You don't know if you are cutting the jacket or messing up your neck tension.

I look at this as iterative improvement. Acknowledge this batch is a little bit non-optimally fugly. Shoot 'em off and enjoy them. Where you have them seated is neither "wrong" nor unsafe. In fact, if you search google image for "seating into cannelure", you'll see bottle neck rifle rounds where they totally ignore the cannelure to seat the bullet near the lands.

Instead, we are talking about optimization. Seating into the middle of the cannelure helps ensure a firm seat. Make the next batch seated so the case mouth is well into the cannelure.

Here is one example:


# 1 is no crimp (neck tension only), # 2 is RCBS seating die roll crimp, #3 Lee Factory Crimp Die.

(This is from the RealGuns.com article: Crimping - Is it worth the effort ?

Here is one image I found on crimping.


Finally, here is a close up of the roll crimp I posted above:

[Sevens]

Naw, I don't like pushing them in and re-crimping. You don't know if you are cutting the jacket or messing up your neck tension.

I look at this as iterative improvement. Acknowledge this batch is a little bit non-optimally fugly. Shoot 'em off and enjoy them. Where you have them seated is neither "wrong" nor unsafe.

I had meant to say something like this above and forgot.

Rather than trying to "fix" these...
Or going through the energy and hassle of hammering them out with a kinetic puller...
Just shoot 'em. And you'll find that the pressure of the round irons out everything you've done and there'll be no evidence left behind, just normal, average spent brass. And you can use that brass again later while you work on building the end product you wanted all along.

[Morne]

My chrony arrived, but the weather sucks today so time to start tinkering with .45 ACP...

The interesting thing with .45 ACP is the lack of variation between lead and jacketed. Hodgdon's website shows 4.3/5.3 and 4.2/5.3 for min/max in lead and jacketed, respectively, with W-231 shoving 230-gr bullets. That's really different from the .38 Special loads that didn't even overlap!

Hodgdon's website is one of the more conservative resources I've checked for .45 ACP, other books show 5.0/5.7 grains. Thus, I'm thinking that 5.0 grains of W-231 is a good starting load. Bullets are 230-gr copper plated RN from X-Treme.

Thoughts?

[Morne]

***CHRONY DATA***

18 Degrees F, 52% Relative Humidity, 30.13 inches Hg, F-1 Chony six (6) feet from the muzzle

.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.0-gr W-231, 1.460-1.462" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
521.5, 549.7, 591.2, 515.0 - AVERAGE = 544.4 fps

.44 Magnum 240-gr X-Treme copper plated FP, CCI-300 LPP, 8.0-gr W-231, 1.584-1.589" COAL
Taurus Model 44 6.5" ported barrel
878.0, 901.8, 876.3 - AVERAGE = 885.4 fps

The interesting thing about these results is how they correlate to jacketed data. Looking at the Hodgdon site, it seems like the .38 Special load behaved more like the jacketed data, although a bit slower by 150 fps. Ditto the .44 Magnum load, slower than jacketed by about 140 fps. Neither correlated to the lead data at all.

I didn't check POA versus POI. It might be sunny outside today, but it's still cold! I just set-up the chrony and fired into the backstop.

[mreising]

Your 38 Spl. data correlate with the velocities I was getting with 4.0 grains of Win 231 and 158 gr cast LSWC (Missouri Bullets, BHN of 12) out of a Ruger SP101. I had to go up to 4.6 to get over 700 fps, which is what I was looking for. According to my Competition Electronics ProChron Digital, with a new case and 1 new sensor housing , I got: 705, 728, 725, 711, Avg 717, ES 23, & SD 11). Going to 4.7 and 4.8 did not result in significant increases so I went back to 4.6. I tried IMR SR4756, which should have allowed me to get higher velocities than I was seeing with 231 (according to some references) but it wasn't, even at max so I went back to my old standard. I should note that my Win 231 load is over max by some references and near it in others, so find your own data sources, work up your loads, and don't just take my data.

[Morne]

So, next steps should be 4.3 & 4.6 grains for the .38 Special and 8.5 & 9.0 grains for the .44 Magnum?

[mreising]

I think I would go to 4.3 and then use 0.1 gr steps between 4.3 and 4.6 rather than making the jump all at once for the 38 Spl. It's been a long time since I've loaded for a 44 Mag (40 years) and I don't recall my loads from that long ago. As I recall, Win 296 gave me good results and seemed cleaner burning than 2400 with 240 gr. hardcast bullets. Didn't have a chrono then so the only knowledge of velocity was what the books said. I used Win 296 in 44 Automag, also with good results with 265 grain JSP.

[Sevens]

.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.0-gr W-231, 1.460-1.462" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
521.5, 549.7, 591.2, 515.0 - AVERAGE = 544.4 fps

When using a plated or jacketed bullet...

This is a recipe for disaster.

Also, look at your extreme spread. Certainly, it's cold out and you are new to this, but that's an erratic load that is just begging to stick a bullet.

[evan price]

That 8.0 of 231 for 44 mag is a nice plinker.

iirc the max is around 11 grains of 231 (don't have a load book in front of me and they are blocked on this 'puter). I'd go straight up to 9 and then 10.

Don't know what's up with the 38 spl load, those look low to me given the charge.

[mreising]

Morne's 38 special load velocities are consistent with the numbers I got for the same charge weight, same bullet weight but cast lead instead of plated. The velocities were much lower than predicted by the books (Lyman #49; Lee-Modern Reloading; Hornady 6th, 7th & 9th) and Hodgdon's web site. Hornady used a 4" bbl, I am using a 2.25" Ruger SP101, so I expected lower velocities than predicted, but not 200 fps lower. I have the luxury of being able to load of 5 rounds and step out the back door and shoot over the chrono into a backstop and then go back inside and load up 5 more at a different charge. The velocities I posted in an earlier post were after I worked up to the 4.6 grain charge and they were taken out of a batch that was loaded with my Hornady progressive press using only the powder measure. My test loads are always individually weighed when working up to a charge.

[Morne]

That 8.0 of 231 for 44 mag is a nice plinker.

iirc the max is around 11 grains of 231 (don't have a load book in front of me and they are blocked on this 'puter). I'd go straight up to 9 and then 10.

Don't know what's up with the 38 spl load, those look low to me given the charge.

Yeah, I'm happy with the 44 mag load for just messing around with the big gun. But since my goal is 1100 fps I think 9 grains might be close to that. No need for the 8.5 grain step?

.38 Special 158-gr X-Treme copper plated SWC, CCI-500 SPP, 4.0-gr W-231, 1.460-1.462" COAL
Taurus Model 66 6" barrel
521.5, 549.7, 591.2, 515.0 - AVERAGE = 544.4 fps

When using a plated or jacketed bullet...

This is a recipe for disaster.

Also, look at your extreme spread. Certainly, it's cold out and you are new to this, but that's an erratic load that is just begging to stick a bullet.

I didn't like that spread, or super slow speed, either. Question is, what is the next step? 4.3 & 4.6? 4.3 then 0.1 at a time? Straight to 5.0?



I gotta say, I don't know how anybody reloads without a chrony. The feedback is hugely important to me.