Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

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MyWifeSaidYes
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Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I have it on good authority that someone entered the Ohio Union at OSU while open carrying a holstered handgun.

The guy was apparently trying to attend the ABC Town Hall meeting about House Bill 203, but the OSU police would not let him enter the auditorium where the Town Hall was taking place. He was asked, not told, to secure his firearm in his vehicle and he did so. He then returned and signed in to the Town Hall event.

There are no state laws prohibiting the open carry of firearms within the buildings of a public place like OSU, such as the Ohio Union. There ARE restrictions on carrying concealed, however.

This guy was not harassed or mistreated, but what, if anything, did he accomplish?

I will be making an open records request trying to obtain any security footage of this guy to see what really happened.

Remembering that this is the OPEN CARRY forum, comments?
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by buckeye43210 »

Most buildings on the OSU campus are posted. Was there a gun buster sign on the door?
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by JediSkipdogg »

buckeye43210 wrote:Most buildings on the OSU campus are posted. Was there a gun buster sign on the door?
The thing is they legally cannot. I can't quote all the ORC sections on this but in short OSU falls under a government building and government buildings can't prohibit open carry. The ORC sections only prohibit concealed carry.
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BobK »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
buckeye43210 wrote:Most buildings on the OSU campus are posted. Was there a gun buster sign on the door?
The thing is they legally cannot. I can't quote all the ORC sections on this but in short OSU falls under a government building and government buildings can't prohibit open carry. The ORC sections only prohibit concealed carry.
Actually, it is an interesting question.

Clearly, concealed carry is illegal per RC 2923.126(B) and that division makes no mention of open carry.

However, RC 2923.1212 also requires government buildings to post a sign and the required language simply forbids both deadly weapons and dangerous ordnance. One could argue that since deadly weapons are far more broad than the concealed handguns allowed to licensees, and CHL's are clearly not allowed to carry dangerous ordnance, that the legislative intent was for the required signage to apply to all people, not limited to licensees.

Thus I believe if the government building was properly posted per statute, it also applies to non-licensed open carry.
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by JediSkipdogg »

BobK wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:
buckeye43210 wrote:Most buildings on the OSU campus are posted. Was there a gun buster sign on the door?
The thing is they legally cannot. I can't quote all the ORC sections on this but in short OSU falls under a government building and government buildings can't prohibit open carry. The ORC sections only prohibit concealed carry.
Actually, it is an interesting question.

Clearly, concealed carry is illegal per RC 2923.126(B) and that division makes no mention of open carry.

However, RC 2923.1212 also requires government buildings to post a sign and the required language simply forbids both deadly weapons and dangerous ordnance. One could argue that since deadly weapons are far more broad than the concealed handguns allowed to licensees, and CHL's are clearly not allowed to carry dangerous ordnance, that the legislative intent was for the required signage to apply to all people, not limited to licensees.

Thus I believe if the government building was properly posted per statute, it also applies to non-licensed open carry.
The problem is you are dealing with two totally different sections of the ORC. One section applies to the people, 2923.126, the other section applies to the buildings management staff. 2923.1212. While I believe you could argue legislative intent, there is no violation of the law under 2923.126 and no proper charge section. So how do you write a complaint for a violation of a section of law that doesn't exist?
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by Brian D. »

Just a shame that 50 or 100 others didn't "pull the same stunt". I truly believe OSU's bluff would have been called. This tactic, methinks, would have a better chance of success than saving up for years to force OSU into court. A legislative fix would be preferred (by me at least). But at the rate wheels turn at the Statehouse, even wih as pro-gun as both Houses are stacked these days, I'm not terribly optimistic about that route having any expediency.
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BobK »

JediSkipdogg wrote: The problem is you are dealing with two totally different sections of the ORC. One section applies to the people, 2923.126, the other section applies to the buildings management staff. 2923.1212. While I believe you could argue legislative intent, there is no violation of the law under 2923.126 and no proper charge section. So how do you write a complaint for a violation of a section of law that doesn't exist?
Not a problem at all. You still charge with simple criminal trespass RC 2911.21(A)(3). It is no different than a non-licensee open carrying into a posted private business.
(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;
Notice that unlicensed people do not have the "knowingly" advantage afforded to licensees in RC 2923.126. A non-licensee's actions merely need to be "reckless".
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BB62 »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I have it on good authority that someone entered the Ohio Union at OSU while open carrying a holstered handgun.

The guy was apparently trying to attend the ABC Town Hall meeting about House Bill 203, but the OSU police would not let him enter the auditorium where the Town Hall was taking place. He was asked, not told, to secure his firearm in his vehicle and he did so. He then returned and signed in to the Town Hall event.

There are no state laws prohibiting the open carry of firearms within the buildings of a public place like OSU, such as the Ohio Union. There ARE restrictions on carrying concealed, however.

This guy was not harassed or mistreated, but what, if anything, did he accomplish?...
He performed an act that I've thought of doing myself, however I'm concerned about 1) how a court might rule, 2) about the political climate in Columbus, and how quickly this "loophole" might be closed, and 3) above and beyond 1 & 2, that Ohio's RKBA organizations have not and are not willing to back me up.

The individual did a one person "Defense Walk" (I forget what they were called). What was the point of those things? Some will say that it forced the issue of concealed carry, which it did, but others more broad-minded will say that it also dispelled the notion that OC was illegal.

I agree wholeheartedly with Brian D. - if done on a large scale, it would be a lot more effective to call OSU's bluff than the current (and long, long-running) "We're gonna sue them" promise I keep hearing about.

FOR ALL: at least two states, Kentucky and Virginia both have legal carry in govt owned buildings, and as best I know, Kentucky requires no license to do so.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BriKuz »

I would also add that Idaho allows carry in all gov't buildings, except: a Courthouse, a Juvenile Justice Facility Or Jail, or a Public or Private School.

You CAN carry in a school with school board permission. You can also carry in your vehicle while dropping or picking up students or teachers. Not sure about leaving locked in car if working or other business at a school.
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by Werz »

BobK wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote: The problem is you are dealing with two totally different sections of the ORC. One section applies to the people, 2923.126, the other section applies to the buildings management staff. 2923.1212. While I believe you could argue legislative intent, there is no violation of the law under 2923.126 and no proper charge section. So how do you write a complaint for a violation of a section of law that doesn't exist?
Not a problem at all. You still charge with simple criminal trespass RC 2911.21(A)(3). It is no different than a non-licensee open carrying into a posted private business.
(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;
Notice that unlicensed people do not have the "knowingly" advantage afforded to licensees in RC 2923.126. A non-licensee's actions merely need to be "reckless".
Exactly. That's what I have repeatedly said in this forum and others. Here are the more interesting questions:
  • The statute mandates the signage. There is no penalty section. What is the sanction if the governmental custodian simply ignores the law and does not post?
  • Let's assume that the governmental custodian complies with the law and posts the signage. If the building is not otherwise a CPZ (courthouse, jail, school, etc.), is the governmental custodian required to enforce the terms of the signage, or can the governmental custodian simply decline to prosecute a person who openly carries a deadly weapon?
At places like OSU and urban government offices, they will probably be delighted to prosecute. In more rural and exurban areas, you may find government officials who have no problem with open carry in their buildings.
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BB62 »

Werz wrote:...At places like OSU and urban government offices, they will probably be delighted to prosecute...
How does one prosecute when the required signage is not backed up by the ORC (iow, there is no open carry prohibition in the "code"). Those are probably the wrong terms, but I presume you understand my meaning.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by Werz »

BB62 wrote:
Werz wrote:...At places like OSU and urban government offices, they will probably be delighted to prosecute...
How does one prosecute when the required signage is not backed up by the ORC (iow, there is no open carry prohibition in the "code"). Those are probably the wrong terms, but I presume you understand my meaning.
R.C. 9.68(A) states: "Except as specifically provided by *** state law *** a person, without further *** permission, *** may *** possess [or] transport*** any firearm[.]

Here is a state law:
No person, without privilege to do so, shall *** [r]ecklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given *** in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders[.] *** It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency. R.C. 2911.21(A)(3),(B).
Here is a "posting *** reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders," which is also "prescribed by law" (and is, in fact, mandated by state law: R.C. 2923.1212), and which gives "notice against unauthorized access or presence":
Image

Can somebody put a sticky on this so that I don't need to explain it again, every time somebody asks?
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BB62 »

Yes, but the signage, though mandated, is not backed up by a prohibition in the "code". The "code" prohibits CC, and makes no mention of OC. How do you get around that fact?
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by BobK »

BB62 wrote:Yes, but the signage, though mandated, is not backed up by a prohibition in the "code". The "code" prohibits CC, and makes no mention of OC. How do you get around that fact?
You do not need a "new statute" with specific open carry charges. The existing criminal trespass statute serves very effectively. The legislature in one section of the law mandates a sign that bars access while possessing deadly weapons, and in a related fashion has a law that says violating posted signs is criminal trespass.

Really, what is so hard to understand here?
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Re: Somebody OC'ed at OSU Union last night

Post by Werz »

BB62 wrote:Yes, but the signage, though mandated, is not backed up by a prohibition in the "code". The "code" prohibits CC, and makes no mention of OC. How do you get around that fact?
Not all violations related to possession of firearms are under Chapter 2923. If you possess a firearm, and if you happen to know that it's stolen, that's Receiving Stolen Property under R.C. 2913.51. That fact that it's a firearm kicks it up to a fourth degree felony.

Given that the signage is so clear and unquestionable in its intent, and the fact that it is required by statute, if a person decided to defy the sign, I doubt a jury would have a problem convicting on a charge of Criminal Trespass, and I doubt that any Ohio appellate court would have a problem upholding the conviction.

Edit: I just noticed something in your post which may be leading to your confusion:
BB62 wrote:The "code" prohibits CC, and makes no mention of OC.
You appear to be reading the descriptive designation of the code section: Signage prohibiting concealed handguns

Read the statute. There is no reference to "concealed," and the prescribed signage covers not only handguns, but all deadly weapons. Now take a look at the enabling legislation. That descriptor is not in there. It goes right from the numerical designation of the code section into the actual text of the statute. The descriptive designation is something that is added by the code service, and it's not always an accurate descriptor. The descriptive designation of the statute is not part of what is enacted by the Ohio General Assembly, and it has no legal effect. Does that help to clarify the issue?
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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