Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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BobK
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Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by BobK »

Here is a nice opinion from the 4th Circuit. Doesn't directly apply to Ohio, but it is certainly on point.

.... Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion and Provides Thorough Analysis of the "Free to Leave" Standard of Seizure
More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states.”
http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case-la ... of-seizure" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

One thing I find funny is this is what all the Youtube OC Warriors seem to be attempting to accomplish, however, it still comes down to a felon committing a felony to define our rights. . . :mrgreen:
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by TunnelRat »

The Fourth Circuit wrote:The Government contends that because other laws prevent convicted felons from possessing guns, the officers could not know whether Troupe was lawfully in possession of the gun until they performed a records check. . . . We are not persuaded. Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states.
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by Werz »

Good. Now it's pretty clear, at least in the Fourth Circuit:
  • Where open carry is lawful, it does not form a basis for investigative detention; and
  • The mere possibility that someone could be a felon is not a default presumption which will justify investigative detention of a person otherwise lawfully carrying a firearm.
Maybe the knuckleheads will stop citing United States v. DeBerry.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
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Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by bearkitty »

Thanks So much for this!

I've been arguing with my former MP hubby about this for weeks now. I always win. :D

He doesn't OC. He won't get a CHL. He was an MP and served overseas. He loves that I carry, and even that I sometimes OC, but he's still scared to death when I do. I guess I have a problem similar to some of the men here, just in reverse.
"Awesome" is code word for CC in my house. Cuts down on the kids asking, loudly, in public, if I am in possession of anything that goes bang.
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by jabeatty »

bearkitty wrote:He loves that I carry, and even that I sometimes OC, but he's still scared to death when I do.
You don't threaten him that often, do you? :)
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by bearkitty »

jabeatty wrote: You don't threaten him that often, do you? :)

Ha Ha...no!

He thinks I'll get cuffed and stuffed and as a result be spending tons of money on attorney fees. While not impossible, I am pretty sure it's unlikely.
"Awesome" is code word for CC in my house. Cuts down on the kids asking, loudly, in public, if I am in possession of anything that goes bang.
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by BB62 »

jabeatty wrote:
bearkitty wrote:He loves that I carry, and even that I sometimes OC, but he's still scared to death when I do.
You don't threaten him that often, do you? :)
I thought *I* was a mean hombre, but evidently not! :shock: :shock:
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by BB62 »

Werz wrote:Good. Now it's pretty clear, at least in the Fourth Circuit:
  • Where open carry is lawful, it does not form a basis for investigative detention; and
  • The mere possibility that someone could be a felon is not a default presumption which will justify investigative detention of a person otherwise lawfully carrying a firearm.
Maybe the knuckleheads will stop citing United States v. DeBerry.
Was U.S. v DeBerry in the Fourth Circuit? If not, well... :wink:
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by Werz »

BB62 wrote:
Werz wrote:Good. Now it's pretty clear, at least in the Fourth Circuit:
  • Where open carry is lawful, it does not form a basis for investigative detention; and
  • The mere possibility that someone could be a felon is not a default presumption which will justify investigative detention of a person otherwise lawfully carrying a firearm.
Maybe the knuckleheads will stop citing United States v. DeBerry.
Was U.S. v DeBerry in the Fourth Circuit? If not, well... :wink:
And for the purpose of Ohio forums, it wasn't in the Sixth Circuit, either. Nevertheless, the statements of law in this case weren't non-dispositive dicta in a concurring opinion which excites only the faithful-but-clueless. :twisted:
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I understand that opinions from one circuit are not binding in other circuits, but does it do any good to cite them in those other circuits?
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Re: Open-Carry State Does Not Create Reasonable Suspicion

Post by Werz »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I understand that opinions from one circuit are not binding in other circuits, but does it do any good to cite them in those other circuits?
It can be "persuasive authority."
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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