Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a firearm.

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glockowner
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by glockowner »

Werz wrote:
glockowner wrote:Briefs are in...

Defense atty went whole hog....33 pages
Not always a good thing. The trick to an appellate brief is to be ... well ... brief. Keep in mind that the three assigned judges need to read a lot of briefs. After you get some experience in writing appellate briefs, you learn that the quicker you can make your point and support it with prevailing law, the more persuasive you can be. Same thing with oral argument. You never want to regurgitate your brief. Make the relevant points quickly, then answer the judge's questions.
Didn't comment on whether it was good or bad, just that he went whole hog. :)

Also, there is no three judge panel. This was remanded to the common pleas judge in Summit. He asked the questions.
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by Werz »

glockowner wrote:
Werz wrote:
glockowner wrote:Briefs are in...

Defense atty went whole hog....33 pages
Not always a good thing. The trick to an appellate brief is to be ... well ... brief. Keep in mind that the three assigned judges need to read a lot of briefs. After you get some experience in writing appellate briefs, you learn that the quicker you can make your point and support it with prevailing law, the more persuasive you can be. Same thing with oral argument. You never want to regurgitate your brief. Make the relevant points quickly, then answer the judge's questions.
Didn't comment on whether it was good or bad, just that he went whole hog. :)

Also, there is no three judge panel. This was remanded to the common pleas judge in Summit. He asked the questions.
Yes. I wrote my response at lunchtime, and I didn't look at the briefs. As I was leaving, I realized that there hadn't been enough time for this case to be back in the court of appeals after the remand, so these were probably briefs in the trial court. Still, the rule still applies. The briefer, the better. However, I'll read both briefs, anyway.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Werz
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by Werz »

sodbuster95 wrote:
Werz wrote:
glockowner wrote:Briefs are in...

Defense atty went whole hog....33 pages
Not always a good thing. The trick to an appellate brief is to be ... well ... brief. Keep in mind that the three assigned judges need to read a lot of briefs. After you get some experience in writing appellate briefs, you learn that the quicker you can make your point and support it with prevailing law, the more persuasive you can be. Same thing with oral argument. You never want to regurgitate your brief. Make the relevant points quickly, then answer the judge's questions.
As a new attorney, I realized very quickly that short and sweet is almost always a better way to go. It keeps people's attention, it makes for a better presentation, and judges appreciate it. Say it --> Support it --> Sit down and/or put the pen down and shut up.

As nearly as I can tell, however, I am in the minority with that opinion.
That doesn't make you any less right. Too many lawyers let their egos in the way of what's important: the case. The lawyer is not the show; the evidence and law are the show. The lawyer is just the master of ceremonies, and a lawyer who blathers on for too long become a distraction.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by Werz »

I thought it might be a good time to resurrect this thread. At the time of the last post, the Ninth District Court of Appeals had remanded the case to the Summit County Common Pleas Court to determine the level of constitutional scrutiny to be applied to the individual right to keep and bear arms under the Second Amendment, as determined by Heller and McDonald. The trial court ordered the parties to brief the issues, and on February 14, 2013, the Summit County Court of Common Pleas issued its final appealable order, finding "that intermediate scrutiny should be applied to determine whether R.C. 2923.16 is constitutional." Applying an intermediate scrutiny standard, the trial court found the statute constitutionally sound.

A new appeal has been filed in the Ninth District Court of Appeals as of February 19, 2013, but no briefs have been filed, and it will be months before there is any decision. However, for anyone who wishes to read the trial court's analysis, the order can be found here.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
JmE
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by JmE »

Thanks, Werz. IMHO, the court was a tad circular towards the end but I believe I see where they were coming from. Of course, I don't agree but they didn't ask me. :lol: In a footnote the court stated that the appeal would've failed strict scrutiny as well. :(

Standing by for the new appeal...

Since there would be a huge stink about "poll taxes", I wonder how the court views licensing and training as it applies to the terminally impoverished, such as myself? In other words, some of us might be too poor to exercise a fundamental right by way of privilege of license and the associated costs.
Then, Sir, we will give them the bayonet! - Gen.Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. - Gen. Robert E. Lee
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

On page 11 of the 'new' final appealable order, you will find the following logic:
If it was constitutional for the state legislature to restrict the Second Amendment rights of Ohio citizens to carry loaded firearms by way of the concealed carry law, it is no less appropriate for the legislature to require citizens who wish to have loaded handguns in their cars to have such permits.

What I see is:

Concealed carry was restricted long before the adoption of the concealed carry law.

Restricting concealed carry is constitutional because citizens have the option of open carry.

Without a Concealed Handgun License, no citizen may keep and bear arms in or on a vehicle, whether carried openly or concealed.

The court suggests that getting a CHL is the method to be able to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle.

Since there are costs involved with the required training and application process for a CHL, the court is supporting an illegal tax.

But that's just me... :roll:
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JmE
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by JmE »

Yep, that was the somewhat "circular" part. And, yes, that is a "tax".

ETA: I hope that you or someone else saved that document as it now 404s on me. :? Anyway, notice where the court stated that the law prevents "accidental" and (not "rash" but a related word) carrying of a handgun in a motor vehicle? I'm not sure how it prevents one from "accidentally" carrying illegally in a motor vehicle. As for (whatever the term was -- imprudently?) carrying in a motor vehicle; I don't think that a law is going to stop most people intent on doing something impulsive or rash. :roll:

ETA: I finally found the proper PDF link and the phrase was "impulsive conduct". :oops:
Last edited by JmE on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, Sir, we will give them the bayonet! - Gen.Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. - Gen. Robert E. Lee
If we must die, we die defending our rights. - Chief Sitting Bull

Moreover, were he to return there, wouldn't he be rather bad at their game, no longer being accustomed to the darkness? - Plato
JmE
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by JmE »

It was the same cached PDF problem. Posting those cached urls only work for a while...

Combining my previous link and editing GlockOwner's post:

http://www.cpclerk.co.summit.oh.us/welcome.asp
Select "Records Search."
Agree to the disclaimer.
Select "Criminal."
Select "Search by Name."
Enter last name of Shover and first name of Sean.
It's the 02/14/2013 entry, "Final Appealable Order"
Then, Sir, we will give them the bayonet! - Gen.Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. - Gen. Robert E. Lee
If we must die, we die defending our rights. - Chief Sitting Bull

Moreover, were he to return there, wouldn't he be rather bad at their game, no longer being accustomed to the darkness? - Plato
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by whoownsyou »

It's not "just" a tax, it's a threat of violence against anybody who would disobey. Not actually harm or threaten anybody. Just disobey what these other human beings say.

In other words, the people making these decisions are doing more harm than the behavior they're trying to control does. And they're doing it to "protect you."
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by bobk2579 »

"in other words, the people making these decisions are doing more harm than the behavior they're trying to control does. And they're doing it to "protect you.""

Now That is one statement i can whole heartedly agree with!

think of zero-tolerance policies sending 5 years olds home from school for eating a pastry into a gun shape etc.!


BTW Wertz thanks for updating this thread. Maybe come next week this may not be quite as bad as now!
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diamond12
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by diamond12 »

I would think they would need to prove that he intended to misuse it.
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by jabeatty »

diamond12 wrote:I would think they would need to prove that he intended to misuse it.
Excuse me - in another thread you mention that you've been charged with two felonies (and you're going to jail!) for your carry activities.

Could you explain why you're carpet-bombing the forums with legal advice?

Could you explain why anyone in his right mind would listen to it?
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by Werz »

jabeatty wrote:
diamond12 wrote:I would think they would need to prove that he intended to misuse it.
Excuse me - in another thread you mention that you've been charged with two felonies (and you're going to jail!) for your carry activities.

Could you explain why you're carpet-bombing the forums with legal advice?

Could you explain why anyone in his right mind would listen to it?
I remember a woman who visited a guy doing life imprisonment to ask his advice on how to get away with killing her husband.

Now, she's doing life imprisonment, too.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
diamond12
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by diamond12 »

I don't really care what you think. I can do/say whatever the hell I want to. I have no idea why you say I am "bombarding" when I left one comment with one sentence. I stated an opinion...that I THINK that in order to charge someone, you need INTENT to use a weapon- which goes back to my case, where I did not. Next time you want to "chat", just send me a message!
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Re: Wow...9th district ruling on improper handling of a fire

Post by BobK »

diamond12 wrote:I don't really care what you think. I can do/say whatever the hell I want to.
Not really. Actually, you agreed to Terms of Service when you created a user ID. This is a family-friendly moderated forum. Jabeatty, myself, and a number of other people that you have given rude responses to are paying members of this organization, whereas you are a guest who has come on here today and made 25 posts. If you are unwilling to adhere to at least a standard of politeness, you won't last long around here.
I am a: NRA Life Member, Texas State Rifle Association Life Member, Texas Firearms Coalition Gold member, OFCC Patron Member, former JFPO member (pre-SAF).

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