Questions about both OC and CHL

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby djthomas » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:57 am

BB62 wrote:The signage must be reflective of the law and its reach, not the law unto itself. As such, CC is disallowed in other portions of the ORC, whereas OC generally isn't.

I agree that it should be that way, but in this case we have a statute that prescribes what the sign should say, more or less. That's not the sign being the law unto itself, but rather the sign reflecting what state law says it must say.

Throughout the years the General Assembly has steadfastly refused to change the required signage to only pertain to CC. If they want to say they didn't know the difference when it comes to signs, well then how come under 2923.126 (C)(3)(a) private entities have the authority to post signs "prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms" ? Obviously there was a distinction to be made there.

When the Capitol Square Review and Advisory Board (CSRAB) passed a rule stating that firearms are prohibited on capitol grounds and in the buildings, the General Assembly had the authority to review and disapprove of the rule, otherwise it has the force of law. Not a single General Assembly member spoke up to say hey wait, that's not what the law we passed actually says. Granted, CSRAB relented a bit when it came to the OFCC rally on capitol grounds but they did so under the guise of issuing authorization, somewhat tied to free speech, not conceding that the rule was improper. And the buildings remained off limits. Just for giggles I called the Capitol Security office a few years ago and asked what would happen if I tried to openly carry a pistol into the capitol with the new metal detectors and whatnot. I was told that it would not be a weapons violation but I would be arrested for trespass as signs are posted stating that no weapons are allowed.

What about when the Casino Control Commission passed a rule saying that no casino licensee can allow firearms, despite the law giving private entities discretion over their own properties? Did the legislators on JCARR say hey wait, that's contrary to the law? Nope, it was ratified. Obviously, the General Assembly is tickled pink with backdoor weapons prohibitions thanks to the ambiguous laws they have passed. Many opportunities to correct, but not a single one acted upon.

To be perfectly clear I don't disagree with your position. But I've also seen the legal process at work long enough to recognize that this particular area is absolutely a trap for the average guy who just wants to carry for the protection of himself and his family.
Never ask if you can carry at a non-posted place, but always ask why you cannot at one that is!
Just because they offer call ahead seating doesn't mean you call ahead for carry permission.
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Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby BB62 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:27 pm

djthomas wrote:
BB62 wrote:The signage must be reflective of the law and its reach, not the law unto itself. As such, CC is disallowed in other portions of the ORC, whereas OC generally isn't.

I agree that it should be that way, but in this case we have a statute that prescribes what the sign should say, more or less. That's not the sign being the law unto itself, but rather the sign reflecting what state law says it must say.

Throughout the years the General Assembly has steadfastly refused to change the required signage to only pertain to CC. If they want to say they didn't know the difference when it comes to signs, well then how come under 2923.126 (C)(3)(a) private entities have the authority to post signs "prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms" ? Obviously there was a distinction to be made there. ...

We've each made our points, so there's no sense in me beating this about more.


djthomas wrote:When the Capitol Square Review and Advisory Board (CSRAB) passed a rule stating that firearms are prohibited on capitol grounds and in the buildings, the General Assembly had the authority to review and disapprove of the rule, otherwise it has the force of law. Not a single General Assembly member spoke up to say hey wait, that's not what the law we passed actually says. Granted, CSRAB relented a bit when it came to the OFCC rally on capitol grounds but they did so under the guise of issuing authorization, somewhat tied to free speech, not conceding that the rule was improper. ...

If you'll check now, you'll find that the CSRAB rules no longer prohibit firearm carry on the capitol grounds - thanks to yours truly's communications with Laura Battocletti (Exec Director of CSRAB) in February - April of this year. :D
Unlike her predecessor(s), who told me in 2013 that it would be taken care of, Ms. Battocletti took care of the matter in fairly short order once I brought it to her attention.


djthomas wrote:...And the buildings remained off limits. Just for giggles I called the Capitol Security office a few years ago and asked what would happen if I tried to openly carry a pistol into the capitol with the new metal detectors and whatnot. I was told that it would not be a weapons violation but I would be arrested for trespass as signs are posted stating that no weapons are allowed. ...

An interesting approach, though as I'm sure you know, what they say and what they do (or what one may or may not be charged with) can be very different things.


djthomas wrote:...What about when the Casino Control Commission passed a rule saying that no casino licensee can allow firearms, despite the law giving private entities discretion over their own properties? Did the legislators on JCARR say hey wait, that's contrary to the law? Nope, it was ratified. Obviously, the General Assembly is tickled pink with backdoor weapons prohibitions thanks to the ambiguous laws they have passed. Many opportunities to correct, but not a single one acted upon. ...

Yeah, I was aware of that, but even though the state licensing board could have their rule overturned, I suspect that the private entities would just replace the government prohibition with one of their own - hence it's not worth spending time on, IMHO.


djthomas wrote:... But I've also seen the legal process at work long enough to recognize that this particular area is absolutely a trap for the average guy who just wants to carry for the protection of himself and his family.

I wholeheartedly agree.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

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Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby djthomas » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:35 pm

BB62 wrote:If you'll check now, you'll find that the CSRAB rules no longer prohibit firearm carry on the capitol grounds - thanks to yours truly's communications with Laura Battocletti (Exec Director of CSRAB) in February - April of this year. :D
Unlike her predecessor(s), who told me in 2013 that it would be taken care of, Ms. Battocletti took care of the matter in fairly short order once I brought it to her attention.

Awesome and well done! It's a great improvement for sure, although I see they still prohibit open carry in buildings because they seem to think they can and none of their bosses care to correct them.
djthomas wrote:...What about when the Casino Control Commission passed a rule saying that no casino licensee can allow firearms, despite the law giving private entities discretion over their own properties?
BB62 wrote:Yeah, I was aware of that, but even though the state licensing board could have their rule overturned, I suspect that the private entities would just replace the government prohibition with one of their own - hence it's not worth spending time on, IMHO.

I agree it doesn't warrant activism but it's still an example of agencies passing firearms restrictions directly exceeding restrictions imposed by state law, and the creators of state law looking up at the sky, shuffling their feet and whistling as they walk away.

The rule now also contradicts ORC 2923.1214. I've asked if it will be looked at in that lens and suddenly everybody who has anything to do with agency rules ain't got nothing to do with no rules. Wonder if the off-duty cop arrested at the Cleveland casino for upskirting a bartender and spitting beer into a security guard's mouth has made them nervous... ;)
Never ask if you can carry at a non-posted place, but always ask why you cannot at one that is!
Just because they offer call ahead seating doesn't mean you call ahead for carry permission.
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