Questions about both OC and CHL

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

Moderators: Coordinators, Moderators

Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby YamahaRyoko » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:27 pm

Hello all.

I am a new-ish gun owner. I am trying to educate myself on Ohio gun laws and there's a few things I'm confused about. I'll start strictly with OC.

The list of prohibited places includes the police station, court house, 1000 feet of a school....

My town is about 10 miles in diameter. We have elementary schools and high schools at major urban intersections, and many 20mph school zones - even on 5 lane roads. By these rules, I technically couldnt walk with OC more than a block in any direction from my home. Couldnt use the sidewalks as they are not far enough away either, and certainly can't OC when taki g the kid out on halloween. Furthermore, its rediculously difficult to OC and run errands in the car. Is all of this accurate? It makes OC insanely impractical if I cant make it one block from the house on foot.

Then the police station, court house and municiple facilities. The center of our town is basically our governmental area with city hall, court house, firehouse, police station, central park, ampitheater annnnnd another high school. Do the laws include the parking lots of said buildings, adjacent streets of said buildings, civic center and park (barring anything within 1000 feet of that school)? It is all city owned property....

Then I ask about the CHL. First question is, does the CHL remedy any of the above issues?

If I had a CHL, what does it imply about driving through those school zones (or walking sidewalks, say on halloween). Does it change OC in the school zones? Can you then carry it either way?

Lastly, transportation. With OC its rediculous having to break down the setup everytime you get in the car. But with CHL, its implied I could HAVE MY SBR LOADED RIDING SHOTTY in plain sight on the seat next to me. Thats a HUGE jump. Thats a little hard to believe even...

Thanks in advance
YamahaRyoko
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby JustaShooter » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:18 pm

YamahaRyoko wrote:Hello all.

I am a new-ish gun owner. I am trying to educate myself on Ohio gun laws and there's a few things I'm confused about. I'll start strictly with OC.

Hello and welcome to the OFCC forums! I commend you on wanting to get educated about Ohio's firearms and carry laws. You've certainly come to the right place to get answers.

YamahaRyoko wrote:The list of prohibited places includes the police station, court house, 1000 feet of a school....

My town is about 10 miles in diameter. We have elementary schools and high schools at major urban intersections, and many 20mph school zones - even on 5 lane roads. By these rules, I technically couldnt walk with OC more than a block in any direction from my home. Couldnt use the sidewalks as they are not far enough away either, and certainly can't OC when taki g the kid out on halloween. Furthermore, its rediculously difficult to OC and run errands in the car. Is all of this accurate? It makes OC insanely impractical if I cant make it one block from the house on foot.

That is accurate, and yes, depending on where you live makes OC pretty impractical in Ohio.

YamahaRyoko wrote:Then the police station, court house and municiple facilities. The center of our town is basically our governmental area with city hall, court house, firehouse, police station, central park, ampitheater annnnnd another high school. Do the laws include the parking lots of said buildings, adjacent streets of said buildings, civic center and park (barring anything within 1000 feet of that school)? It is all city owned property....

Parking lots are fine, as are adjacent streets. And, thanks to Ohio's firearms law preemption, the park is also OK. (Assuming they are more than 1000' from a school, as you note.)

As to the various government buildings, the police station and courthouse are completely no-carry zones. The rest - including the civic center - are arguably OK to OC into, regardless of the sign on the door since there is no law in Ohio prohibiting OC into government buildings other than police stations, prisons, and court houses. *HOWEVER* that has not been tested and will likely cause no end of problems were you to try it before it is tested and widely understood to be legal.

YamahaRyoko wrote:Then I ask about the CHL. First question is, does the CHL remedy any of the above issues?

Yes, many of those issues are addressed by having a CHL. It does not. however, address carry into government facilities.

YamahaRyoko wrote:If I had a CHL, what does it imply about driving through those school zones (or walking sidewalks, say on halloween). Does it change OC in the school zones? Can you then carry it either way?

Yes, yes, and yes. One specific exception to the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act is that you have been issued a license by the state where the school is located. An Ohio CHL would then allow you to carry, openly or concealed, within that 1000' zone *up to the school's property line* while on foot or in a motor vehicle. Ohio law prohibits possessing a firearm on school premises *except* in a motor vehicle as long as the firearm remains in the vehicle and if you leave the vehicle the firearm remains in the vehicle and the vehicle is locked.

YamahaRyoko wrote:Lastly, transportation. With OC its rediculous having to break down the setup everytime you get in the car. But with CHL, its implied I could HAVE MY SBR LOADED RIDING SHOTTY in plain sight on the seat next to me. Thats a HUGE jump. Thats a little hard to believe even...

With a CHL you would no longer have to unload and store your handgun. But, a CHL does not allow you to have a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle. You can have loaded long gun magazines anywhere in the vehicle *except* inserted into a long gun once you have a CHL, and the long gun must still be properly stored. That may not include having the SBR in plain sight on the seat next to you, depending on its overall length. If it is over 24" from butt stock to muzzle (not including any muzzle device that is not permanently attached) then it can be, otherwise it cannot. Here are the ways an unloaded long gun can be transported in Ohio:

From ORC 2923.16 (C)
(1) In a closed package, box, or case;

(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;

(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16

I hope this answers your questions, but if not post back and I'll do my best to help clarify any remaining questions you have.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby YamahaRyoko » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:29 pm

That helps tremendously. It would then make total sense to acquire the CHL

So regarding transportation, my firearm is technically a pistol - a CZ scorpion with folding "brace" with an OAL of roughly 26. So im not sure if that qualifies as a long gun. The intent is to form 1 so I can put the factory folding stock on it, but its still a pistol (?) Its.... complicated.

It looks like two things are true. The ATF classifies the scorpion as a handgun, even with a brace. Once you form 1 the factory stock its a short barreled rifle.

Two, Ohio would then consider the weapon a dangerous ordinance, subject to another set of rules anyway. Soooo maybe thats not a great idea overall and I will just continue to envy two-stamps on the internet until I am more experienced

One other detail. Our cities largest high school also has about 6 baseball diamonds, a football stadium, ampitheater, park. Is ALL of that a school zone (not that I would take the scorpion there, but Im looking at a sidearm as well.
YamahaRyoko
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby JustaShooter » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:18 pm

I'm pretty familiar with Federal law surrounding AR/AK and similar pistols, braces, "other firearms", SBRs, etc. Yeah, it gets complicated... lol

For your specific situation, as delivered from the factory the CZ Scorpion does meet the definition of a "handgun" under Ohio law, but once you SBR it you would lose that classification.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby JustaShooter » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:20 pm

YamahaRyoko wrote:One other detail. Our cities largest high school also has about 6 baseball diamonds, a football stadium, ampitheater, park. Is ALL of that a school zone

If the property is owned by the school, then yes. Check on the county auditor's website and do a property search (but I bet it is owned by the school). If so, that makes all of it a part of the Ohio "School Safety Zone" and as such you can only carry in your vehicle while on the premises.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby YamahaRyoko » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:15 am

Thank you again. Does the CHL help educate people on the law as well? I would hope so. I could probably google this, but do I need a compact pistol before taking the course?

In the past, I would never think to OC in my yuppie town, as every other person would call 911 when they saw it. But once the CHL was in effect, firearms started sticking out of waistbands and shirts everywhere you went. At some point residents had to accept it, and our culture has changed. A lot more people are OCing as well now. Unfortunately, I don't think our LEO have accepted it, and use facebook as a platform to post each and every weapon they manage to confiscate from whom. Maybe they just do it so the department looks good. Ammunition too, eg "a thousand rounds of ammunition was removed from the home". Umm... thats only $200... my wife bought me that for xmas..
YamahaRyoko
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby JustaShooter » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:58 pm

YamahaRyoko wrote:Thank you again. Does the CHL help educate people on the law as well? I would hope so.

It depends on the instructor - the law only requires a basic safety class, but a good instructor will devote significant time to covering practical aspects of carrying, including Ohio law regarding self defense, signage, notification of law enforcement during a stop, etc. You'll have to do some research to find out. There are several good instructors here, so if you post your location, we might be able to point you toward one of the good ones.

YamahaRyoko wrote:I could probably google this, but do I need a compact pistol before taking the course?

Also depends on the instructor - many recommend that if you haven't yet bought one to hold off till after the class. They can often provide one or more for you to shoot during the class and can give you suggestions on what to look for in a carry piece.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby BB62 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:50 am

JustaShooter wrote:...As to the various government buildings, the police station and courthouse are completely no-carry zones. ...

What is the ORC section disallowing OC into a police station?
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

Got Freedom?

Accountant, Computer & Management Consultant
Scuba Diver, NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor
User avatar
BB62
 
Posts: 2546
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby JustaShooter » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:48 am

BB62 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:...As to the various government buildings, the police station and courthouse are completely no-carry zones. ...

What is the ORC section disallowing OC into a police station?

My bad, I had it in my head that they were addressed similarly to courthouses, but they are not. As I've often said, however, one should exercise caution regarding those places where concealed carry is prohibited but open carry is not as that has not been well tested in Ohio (and is certainly not widely understood).
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby BB62 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:31 am

JustaShooter wrote:... As I've often said, however, one should exercise caution regarding those places where concealed carry is prohibited but open carry is not as that has not been well tested in Ohio (and is certainly not widely understood).

I absolutely agree with every aspect of your statement.

There could be very negative ramifications for the unaware/unprepared individual as well as undesirable ripple effects on the Ohio RKBA landscape as a whole.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

Got Freedom?

Accountant, Computer & Management Consultant
Scuba Diver, NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor
User avatar
BB62
 
Posts: 2546
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby djthomas » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:04 am

To further muddy the waters there is also a credible argument to be made that OCing in a properly posted enumerated CPZ is criminal trespass.

You see, the general assembly has revised the signage requirements several times. Each time they stuck with the language everyone knows and loves:
Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.

A prosecutor would point out that the general assembly knows the difference between OC and CC, as evidenced by 9.68 where carrying openly and concealed are recognized as distinct modes of carry. Yet despite making several updates to the signage rules in the last 15 years the GA has not chosen to have the signs make any distinction. Thus it seems the GA wants the signs to mean what they say: possessing a deadly weapon on the premises is prohibited.

Now, carrying concealed is without question a CCW violation. What about OC? Well, the signs meet the requirements of 2921.11 (A)(4) which prohibits:
Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail[ing] or refus[ing] to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

State law mandates these signs, so it doesn't run afoul of 9.68 which authorizes carrying openly except as disallowed by state or federal law. There's nothing else in the ORC explicitly authorizing a private citizen to openly carry within premises required by law to post. That's where the fairground issues come into play. Posting the sign on a bona fide government facility on the grounds? Required by law*. Posting it at the entrance to the grounds? Not required by law, therefore not permitted under 9.68.

There's no case law on point that anyone is aware of, so an arrest for criminal trespass would be presumptively valid. To BB62s remarks these are indeed dark waters for the unintiated, not to mention potentially politically perilous given the current climate.

* Unless, of course, the governing body of said government facility has authorized otherwise.
Never ask if you can carry at a non-posted place, but always ask why you cannot at one that is!
Just because they offer call ahead seating doesn't mean you call ahead for carry permission.
User avatar
djthomas
 
Posts: 5954
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am
Location: Medina County

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby JustaShooter » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:15 pm

Muddy indeed - but I disagree with your reasoning.

The required wording for signage specifically refers to the ORC as what gives it power: "pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code". Nothing in the Ohio Revised Code prohibits openly carrying a weapon into those premises.

Likewise, I disagree with your assertion about trespass - the wording of the criminal trespass statute says "Being on the land or premises of another,". I submit that those places are not "land or premises of another", they are *public* land, public premises. And, although I have no idea if there is case law to back it up, I have never seen anything that allows you to be trespassed from public property. If they could do so, there are *many* times city councils and other public officials would have taken advantage of that ability. And unless you are actually breaking the law, I don't see how you could be arrested.
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor

Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
User avatar
JustaShooter
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: Akron/Canton Area

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby schmieg » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:54 pm

JustaShooter wrote:Muddy indeed - but I disagree with your reasoning.

The required wording for signage specifically refers to the ORC as what gives it power: "pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code". Nothing in the Ohio Revised Code prohibits openly carrying a weapon into those premises.

Likewise, I disagree with your assertion about trespass - the wording of the criminal trespass statute says "Being on the land or premises of another,". I submit that those places are not "land or premises of another", they are *public* land, public premises. And, although I have no idea if there is case law to back it up, I have never seen anything that allows you to be trespassed from public property. If they could do so, there are *many* times city councils and other public officials would have taken advantage of that ability. And unless you are actually breaking the law, I don't see how you could be arrested.

This is why attorneys charge big bucks. Often, they are the only ones who win in cases like these.
-- Mike

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
User avatar
schmieg
OFCC Coordinator
OFCC Coordinator
 
Posts: 5356
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
Location: Madeira, Ohio

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby djthomas » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:14 am

JustaShooter wrote:The required wording for signage specifically refers to the ORC as what gives it power: "pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code". Nothing in the Ohio Revised Code prohibits openly carrying a weapon into those premises.

The funny thing is if you look at the official sign produced by the AG years ago and used since the "pursuant to" language is actually at the bottom by itself. So you have signs that read "Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall..." with "Posted pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code" as a standalone sentence at the bottom. That wording is less ambiguous since the "pursuant to" bit is speaking to the posting of the sign itself, not the act of carrying a weapon. Before someone says "but wait, that's not what the law says the sign should say", you're right, except that the law only requires that the sign be substantially in that form. Yay, more wiggle room for lawyers to make money.
JustaShooter wrote:I submit that those places are not "land or premises of another", they are *public* land, public premises. And, although I have no idea if there is case law to back it up, I have never seen anything that allows you to be trespassed from public property. If they could do so, there are *many* times city councils and other public officials would have taken advantage of that ability. And unless you are actually breaking the law, I don't see how you could be arrested.

That's where division (B) of the criminal trespass statute steps in:
(B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.

To your point about city councils trespassing people, that's a complicated analogy. There are statutes affirmatively stating that the public has the right to attend public meetings. When the decision is made to trespass someone from public property it has to be for content-neutral reasons. Things like closing a public park at 11 PM or prohibiting dirt bikes on a playground is fine. Prohibiting someone from wearing a shirt that says the mayor sucks is not. I grew up near a public golf course and during the winter people used to go cross country skiing there. Problem was they'd get hurt and not be found for a while (this was before cell phones) or cause other property damage. So the city put up CLOSED - NO TRESPASSING signs at the end of the season and every now and then you'd read about someone getting hauled out in an ambulance and cited for trespassing.

Back to city councils, what you sometimes find is that councils will not have a public comment segment on their meeting agenda. If someone insists on speaking anyway then law enforcement can proceed accordingly.
Never ask if you can carry at a non-posted place, but always ask why you cannot at one that is!
Just because they offer call ahead seating doesn't mean you call ahead for carry permission.
User avatar
djthomas
 
Posts: 5954
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am
Location: Medina County

Re: Questions about both OC and CHL

Postby BB62 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:40 am

djthomas wrote:To further muddy the waters there is also a credible argument to be made that OCing in a properly posted enumerated CPZ is criminal trespass.

You see, the general assembly has revised the signage requirements several times. Each time they stuck with the language everyone knows and loves:
Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.
...

So ORC 9.68 (in either its current or new version, both linked below) isn't enough "authorization" for you?

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68v1

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68v2

To wit, in the current version: "Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition." (my bold & underline)

Also, "(1) The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person's person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition."

The signage must be reflective of the law and its reach, not the law unto itself. As such, CC is disallowed in other portions of the ORC, whereas OC generally isn't.
Yes, I do believe in open carry. An openly armed man is clear in his intentions. Concealed carriers are sneaks and skulkers and elitist, boot licking, political contribution making, running dog lackies of The Man. <wink> (thx grumpycoconut - OpenCarry.org)

Got Freedom?

Accountant, Computer & Management Consultant
Scuba Diver, NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor
User avatar
BB62
 
Posts: 2546
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:57 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Next

Return to Ohio Open Carry Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest