Carry in a Church

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Ray
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Carry in a Church

Post by Ray »

I need to know if I'm thinking correctly on this subject. So all of the really smart people here, feel free to answer the question.

I was taking with a friend today & he told me that he carries in his Church, that the Pastor said it was OK. I told him that was great, that the Pastor would let him carry. Then I asked him if he had a letter giving him that permission & he said NO!! I told him that was a problem, if he was to be seen caught by LEO with a firearm in the Church. His Deacon told him he didn't need a letter anymore that the law was changed when the restaurant/bar law was passed. I told him I don't think that was correct & that I wouldn't carry without a letter from the church stating I could.

All comments would be of great help. I sure hope I'm correct on this.

Ray
Last edited by Ray on Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by Javelin Man »

The law wasn't changed with the restaurant carry.

Your friend CAN carry with permission from the pastor. He doesn't need written permission, it's just a CYA thing that's great to have.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by Hyflyer »

To me, the stakes are too high (felony charge) for a verbal agreement. Personally, I would need to have it in writing.

AFAIK, I'm not aware of anything in the "Restaurant carry" stuff that would effect carry in a church
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by JediSkipdogg »

I've always recommended letters for multiple reasons....

1) It's a statutory law. It's not an option for them to post, they are sorta posted by law. They just aren't required to have the signs up.
2) It's a felony for violating it.
3) If someone wants to shoot up a church, who is their primary target? Generally, the pastor. Sure, others may be shot, but I would say that is their primary target. If he's down, where's your agreement?

How much faith do you put in a verbal agreement? Written stands up much more. When I trained churches on a regular basis I use to have them make up small business cards, had two high up members of the church sign them, and then laminated them. It was sorta a Church CHL.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by djthomas »

I am not aware of a single person ever being charged, let alone convicted, for carrying in a church for which he/she is a member. Not saying it hasn't or won't happen, but let's understand the dynamics here.

Provided that the discovery wasn't made due to the person waving it around and making threats the prosecution is going to be very reliant on the wishes of the victim (i.e. church). If the perpetrator is a member in good standing chances are it will be dealt with internally. But let's say a visitor sees the gun and calls the police. The police come and the perpetrator says he has permission. The police are going to ask the pastor, "Hey Pastor Jim, Joe Bob says you're cool with him carrying a gun here. We can arrest him and haul him to county for a felony if you want..." I just don't see many pastors throwing a good standing member of their congregation under the bus for a felony in which nothing was stolen and nobody was hurt. Even if the pastor says "Well no, but I don't want him arrested" in a way that's granting permission for what just occurred.

Remember, the exception in the law states "unless the church ... posts or permits otherwise." Technically one doesn't need to have permission in advance. If the church says Jim can carry it really doesn't matter if that was approved 10 years ago or 10 minutes ago. That's why in order for me to make an arrest I'd want an affirmative statement from the church that they do not permit concealed carry and do in fact desire prosecution. Otherwise there's just too many ways to raise reasonable doubt, unlike the other enumerated CPZs where just being in the building is 90% of the way to a guilty verdict.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by BobK »

djthomas wrote:The police come and the perpetrator says he has permission. The police are going to ask the pastor, "Hey Pastor Jim, Joe Bob says you're cool with him carrying a gun here. We can arrest him and haul him to county for a felony if you want..." I just don't see many pastors throwing a good standing member of their congregation under the bus for a felony in which nothing was stolen and nobody was hurt. Even if the pastor says "Well no, but I don't want him arrested" in a way that's granting permission for what just occurred.
Sometimes when the police are often posted at the church to help traffic before and after services, it doesn't even take the pastor.

When I lived in a Columbus suburb, I saw the same guys regularly helping Sundays. Our Catholic Church had 4 masses on Sundays, so these guys would get about 6 hours special duty pay every week and were very friendly with regular parishioners. On more than one occasion, they would see me pull up and park on the street and hike over instead of instead of parking in the lot near the doors and ask me why I was parking on the street. I'd say that I had my gun in the car (remember this was both a church and a school). They say something like, "Naw, you don't don't have to worry about that, we'd never give you a hard time over it."

Nice sentiment. I still never carried on the property. Not risking a felony.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by eye95 »

BobK wrote:
djthomas wrote:...I'd say that I had my gun in the car (remember this was both a church and a school). [The officers] say something like, "Naw, you don't don't have to worry about that, we'd never give you a hard time over it."

Nice sentiment. I still never carried on the property. Not risking a felony.
I've heard police say things like that before. Most cops probably would be cool about it. But it would only take one on a power trip to send you to jail!

You're right about not risking the felony.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by docachna »

Hyflyer wrote:To me, the stakes are too high (felony charge) for a verbal agreement. Personally, I would need to have it in writing....

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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by djthomas »

BobK wrote:Nice sentiment. I still never carried on the property. Not risking a felony.
Completely agree - and the dynamic that it's a school does change things a bit. A school requires written permission to carry. I'm not Catholic, nor do I attend a super mega church. We're your run of the mill no frills neighborhood church with a couple hundred or so members like many in the area. Nobody has written permission but folks can and do carry in that building.
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by Luv2Camp »

JediSkipdogg wrote:I've always recommended letters for multiple reasons....

When I trained churches on a regular basis I use to have them make up small business cards, had two high up members of the church sign them, and then laminated them. It was sorta a Church CHL.

That is a great idea! I am currently working with my church on building a security team. Do you have any examples of the card? I am thinking about quoting ORC 2923.126 #6 on the backside of the card so as to have some refererence to what the code actually states regarding the need to have permission. The front I am thinking about it stating something to the effect that --------- church has given permission for ---------- to carry concealed firearm while in possession of a valid Ohio CCW permit on church property and/or offsite church functions. Thinking about putting a picture as well.

Any feedback on the language?
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by 3FULLMAGS+1 »

Luv2Camp wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:I've always recommended letters for multiple reasons....

When I trained churches on a regular basis I use to have them make up small business cards, had two high up members of the church sign them, and then laminated them. It was sorta a Church CHL.

That is a great idea! I am currently working with my church on building a security team. Do you have any examples of the card? I am thinking about quoting ORC 2923.126 #6 on the backside of the card so as to have some refererence to what the code actually states regarding the need to have permission. The front I am thinking about it stating something to the effect that --------- church has given permission for ---------- to carry concealed firearm while in possession of a valid Ohio CCW permit on church property and/or offsite church functions. Thinking about putting a picture as well.

Any feedback on the language?
Maybe a word of wisdom here, Getting permission in "some" form of writing is the best way to go as opposed to verbal only, BUT, imo. I wouldn't go broadcasting it all over the place that permission was given and that there are individuals carrying in the church. I'd bet there are people in your congregation as there are in mine, that would have a cow over it,......not that I would care....... but the decision to allow carry could end up being revoked if there was a big stink over it. It would be good for all of you who carry , to know each other and talk about what you will do in such a situation, but I would limit it to that. And I would NOT want to be considered "security" for legal reasons. You are carrying to protect yourself and family and that is all. The "security" that the congregation receives from you and the others who carry is simply a byproduct of your carrying. We put it in our board meeting minutes and each has a copy of those minutes......just my $.02 .
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Re: Carry in a Church

Post by Mr. Glock »

My understanding is that a number of Jewish congregations have a similar arrangement. Meet, shoot a bit, learn the parameters from someone with more professional knowledge. Let's face it, if SJS breaks out, that is the first stop (and most have armed off-duty LEO up here in Cleveland too).

My church. not so much, legal no-guns plus signs. FWIW. I brought it up with our pastor (having helped with a big strategic planning effort - critical help actually- eyes like chipmunks). Sunday is a mixed bag for me, honestly. Like sheep to the slaughter. But the service is great.

Hmmmmm
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