Places with no carry rules but no sign

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Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby ElBurroLoco » Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:53 pm

I'm just beginning to learn about OH CCW laws. I understand that carrying into a place with a do not patronize while armed sign would be a trespassing violation. What about places that have rules against carrying but aren't posted. For example, if you are an agent for a company like State Farm or something, have your own office that doesn't have a sign posted, but the company has a no firearms rule. I assume that is not trespassing and you're only subject to the discipline of the company for violating their policy. Just want to see if that's true in OH.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby JediSkipdogg » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:00 pm

In Ohio we have three types of no carry rules. The first is Statutory No Carry Zones, while they are required to post under 2923.1212 Signage prohibiting concealed handguns., there's no penalty to them that they don't however the penalty still sticks to you for violating it. Those are pretty much outlined in...

2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.
(B) A valid concealed handgun license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:

(1) A police station, sheriff's office, or state highway patrol station, premises controlled by the bureau of criminal identification and investigation, a state correctional institution, jail, workhouse, or other detention facility, an airport passenger terminal, or an institution that is maintained, operated, managed, and governed pursuant to division (A) of section 5119.14 of the Revised Code or division (A)(1) of section 5123.03 of the Revised Code;

(2) A school safety zone if the licensee's carrying the concealed handgun is in violation of section 2923.122 of the Revised Code;

(3) A courthouse or another building or structure in which a courtroom is located, in violation of section 2923.123 of the Revised Code;

(4) Any premises or open air arena for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303. of the Revised Code if the licensee's carrying the concealed handgun is in violation of section 2923.121 of the Revised Code;

(5) Any premises owned or leased by any public or private college, university, or other institution of higher education, unless the handgun is in a locked motor vehicle or the licensee is in the immediate process of placing the handgun in a locked motor vehicle;

(6) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship, unless the church, synagogue, mosque, or other place of worship posts or permits otherwise;

(7) A child day-care center, a type A family day-care home, or a type B family day-care home, except that this division does not prohibit a licensee who resides in a type A family day-care home or a type B family day-care home from carrying a concealed handgun at any time in any part of the home that is not dedicated or used for day-care purposes, or from carrying a concealed handgun in a part of the home that is dedicated or used for day-care purposes at any time during which no children, other than children of that licensee, are in the home;

(8) An aircraft that is in, or intended for operation in, foreign air transportation, interstate air transportation, intrastate air transportation, or the transportation of mail by aircraft;

(9) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section;

(10) A place in which federal law prohibits the carrying of handguns.


The second is places not listed above that choose to post....

2923.126 Duties of licensed individual.
(C)(3)(a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.


The last location is not criminal but puts your employment at risk. If it's in the employee handbook it cannot apply to you as criminal unless it's "a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises...." The employee handbook only would then be between you and your employer. Since Ohio is an at will employment state, they can fire you for your firearm on their property if the guidebook prohibits it. Actually, they can fire you even if it doesn't. The good rule of thumb is don't talk about it at work.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby Tweed Ring » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:24 pm

There was a young man who used to post hereon, talked about guns at work, then someone complained, and he lost a good job. Employment at will.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby BobK » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:49 pm

ElBurroLoco wrote:For example, if you are an agent for a company like State Farm or something, have your own office that doesn't have a sign posted, but the company has a no firearms rule. I assume that is not trespassing...

I would not assume that. If you know the company policy is no firearms, then either (2) or (3) could apply.

RC 2911.21 (A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
...
(2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby schmieg » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:45 pm

If a place is not posted, you have no notice of its position against carrying, but, if you are informed of it, you must leave immediately or you will be subject to the trespass charge. It's a matter of knowledge. Don't argue with them that there is not sign, just drop whatever you were going to buy and leave.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby carmen fovozzo » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:47 am

Is your name Jake from State Farm ? :)
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby Cruiser » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:56 am

carmen fovozzo wrote:Is your name Jake from State Farm ? :)

"What are you wearing, Jake from State Farm?" :wink:
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:08 pm

If a company has a "no firearms" EMPLOYEE policy, it doesn't apply to customers and that would be one reason the office is not posted.

Where did you see the "no firearms" rule you mentioned?
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby ElBurroLoco » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:51 pm

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:If a company has a "no firearms" EMPLOYEE policy, it doesn't apply to customers and that would be one reason the office is not posted.

Where did you see the "no firearms" rule you mentioned?


I'm talking about employees not customers. I was just wondering if you could get arrested and charged with trespass in OH for carrying in your place of work if there is a company policy against it but no sign posted on the door, even if the company is headquartered in another state and you have your own office and you're basically your own boss in the day-to-day but you have oversight from corporate. I'm thinking people like insurance agents, financial people etc. Their company, such as State Farm, is headquartered somewhere in the country and the boss is not in the same place as you. You have your office and maybe a secretary. Sure, you could probably get away with it pretty easily because of that. But if you were to somehow get caught, could you get arrested? It seems like those who posted above say yes and that you could be terminated without reason. It seems like it's more about "knowledge" of a policy.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby schmieg » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:27 pm

ElBurroLoco wrote:
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:If a company has a "no firearms" EMPLOYEE policy, it doesn't apply to customers and that would be one reason the office is not posted.

Where did you see the "no firearms" rule you mentioned?


I'm talking about employees not customers. I was just wondering if you could get arrested and charged with trespass in OH for carrying in your place of work if there is a company policy against it but no sign posted on the door, even if the company is headquartered in another state and you have your own office and you're basically your own boss in the day-to-day but you have oversight from corporate. I'm thinking people like insurance agents, financial people etc. Their company, such as State Farm, is headquartered somewhere in the country and the boss is not in the same place as you. You have your office and maybe a secretary. Sure, you could probably get away with it pretty easily because of that. But if you were to somehow get caught, could you get arrested? It seems like those who posted above say yes and that you could be terminated without reason. It seems like it's more about "knowledge" of a policy.

Yes, you could be charged under those circumstances, but you would probably just be fired. The termination would be for cause if non-carry was corporate policy and you were informed of the policy, so you wouldn't be able to collect unemployment.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:07 pm

schmieg wrote:
ElBurroLoco wrote:I'm talking about employees not customers. I was just wondering if you could get arrested and charged with trespass in OH for carrying in your place of work if there is a company policy against it but no sign posted on the door, even if the company is headquartered in another state and you have your own office and you're basically your own boss in the day-to-day but you have oversight from corporate....

Yes, you could be charged under those circumstances, but you would probably just be fired. The termination would be for cause if non-carry was corporate policy and you were informed of the policy, so you wouldn't be able to collect unemployment.


Criminal charges would be unlikely, but possible. I think it would depend greatly on where you are and who catches you carrying, and your reaction.

Assuming you are with your boss or a co-worker while armed...

If you are in public or in your own home, no criminal charge at all.

If you are in someone else's unposted home or business, no criminal charge at all UNLESS you refuse to leave if/when asked.

If you are in your unposted company office, because criminal trespass is a misdemeanor, they would have to actively file a criminal complaint against you and claim that you knew their policy. If you signed off on your employee handbook with that policy in it, that's their evidence.

I doubt a LEO would do anything more than ask you to leave the property, as they don't enforce company policies, but that likely depends on the individual officer. Do NOT refuse, or even hesitate, to leave if/when asked by a LEO.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby gaptrick » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:14 pm

He wants to know if he'd be breaking law... If the place wasn't posted, and it isn't one of the enumerated zones, you WOULDN'T be breaking a "law" that is in the Ohio Revised Code, but WOULD be breaking a rule of employment.

If the agent was sitting with a client going over a policy and the client sees a gun on his side and then calls the police, I would believe it would go only as far as the police checking the guys CHL (license) and confirming there was no posted sign.

Would it be possible to have the police call the main office, ask for HR, check company policy, look for a signed contract? That would be one nose to the grindstone cop Even then, no sign, no "law" broken.

His problem lies with the secretary or client) calling corporate....
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby BobK » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:40 pm

gaptrick wrote:...Even then, no sign, no "law" broken.

Simply not accurate. Re-read criminal trespass statutes RC 2911.21. A sign is not a required element of the crime.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby Voice » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:18 pm

Yep. The requirement is *notice given*. The sign is simply a specified method by which arbitrary people can be considered to have been given notice without having to be personally spoken to by an owner/employee.

An employee manual which states the same, combined with a signed form saying you received and understand the contents of said manual is another method of providing notice.

Absent a sign, or any other form of notice, you'd be clear right up until you were informed that guns are not welcome.
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Re: Places with no carry rules but no sign

Postby Tweed Ring » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:25 pm

Sometimes, for whatever reason, a LEO may cut somebody a break. Due to all the zero tolerance silliness, discrimination lawsuits, etc. HR is extraordinarily reluctant to offer a similar break when it comes to a violation of the employer’s rules.

Ohio has employment at will and employers use it to their advantage.
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