A Catch 22

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walnut red
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A Catch 22

Post by walnut red »

Last week I purchased a S&W revolver that qualifies as a Curio and Relic from an online auction. I sent a copy of my C&R to the seller along with payment and today received notice that the item shipped via the USPO. The package will be marked Adult Signature Required which means I'll have to stop by the PO on the way home from work. As soon as I sign for the package and take possession of it wouldn’t I be violating the CPZ signage?
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by JimE »

Is the seller a dealer FFL ? If not, you might have issues.
IIRC, the postal regs only allow handguns to shipped from one dealer to another, and a 03 FFL (C&R) is not a dealer.
You need to stop the shipment , and get some clarification on that.
walnut red
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by walnut red »

Yes, he is a dealer (FFL)
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Sevens
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by Sevens »

Okay, interesting topic. In the mean time, please tell me about the Smith & Wesson revolver! :D
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
walnut red
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by walnut red »

A S&W M17 that was made the same year and month I was born. 5/1958.
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by Sevens »

Most excellent! 8)
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
Brian D.
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by Brian D. »

walnut red wrote:A S&W M17 that was made the same year and month I was born. 5/1958.
I need to review the list of Curio and Relic-eligible guns more often. In my early years of buying firearms the cut off date for them was right around 1898. That was about thirty years previous by the way, I'm not exactly ancient. :wink:

Last time I perused the list maybe ten years back they'd certainly added some pretty cool, still-relevant firearms.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: A Catch 22

Post by Cruiser »

Brian D. wrote:
walnut red wrote:A S&W M17 that was made the same year and month I was born. 5/1958.
I need to review the list of Curio and Relic-eligible guns more often. In my early years of buying firearms the cut off date for them was right around 1898. That was about thirty years previous by the way, I'm not exactly ancient. :wink:

Last time I perused the list maybe ten years back they'd certainly added some pretty cool, still-relevant firearms.
Aren't C&R's fifty years old? But they need to be on the list also, not just fifty years old.
A link - http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearm ... -2010.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'll let you look it up.
Edit I was almost right!
Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. However, if your C&R item is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and you desire removal from the provisions of the NFA, you must submit the firearm to the Firearms Technology Branch for evaluation and a formal classification.
Abandon ye all HOPE!
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by JimE »

Here is a link to the Postal Regs.
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From what I can see, a C&R licensee cannot ship or receive a handgun unless it is an "antique" which does not use fixed ammunition. That really makes a lot of sense, because all firearms made prior to 1898 (except certain NFA weapons) are outside the scope of the GCA of '68.
Dealer to dealer shipments are ok.
This stinks, cause USPS is so much cheaper than FedEx or UPS.
walnut red
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by walnut red »

ironically according to part 432.2 (b) of the link you posted some pistols less than 50 years old like the CZ82 could be mailed by a C&R holder but my 56 year old M17 could not. Oh well, no one expect laws to make sense.
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by mbott »

I believe that there could be some dangerous liberties being taken in this thread as to what makes up a "firearm". When you read http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 you will notice there is nothing defining age (i.e. not older than 1898 or 50 years, etc) as to what characteristics a "firearm" has. Best to be conservative.

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Re: A Catch 22

Post by Werz »

mbott wrote:I believe that there could be some dangerous liberties being taken in this thread as to what makes up a "firearm". When you read http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 you will notice there is nothing defining age (i.e. not older than 1898 or 50 years, etc) as to what characteristics a "firearm" has. Best to be conservative.
When federal law simply regulates a "firearm," the definitions under 18 U.S.C. §921(a)(3) is what matters, at least under that chapter. However, when the regulation depends on whether something is a curio/relic, the age of the firearm is relevant.

Plus I like to add the reminder that offenses under Ohio do not use the federal definition. Frames, receivers, and anything not readily in a condition to expel a projectile is not a firearm, but an operable black powder muzzleloader is a firearm.
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mbott
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by mbott »

walnut red wrote:ironically according to part 432.2 (b) of the link you posted some pistols less than 50 years old like the CZ82 could be mailed by a C&R holder but my 56 year old M17 could not. Oh well, no one expect laws to make sense.
No, you can't mail a C&R-eligble handgun like the CZ82. Per the ATF, a C&R FFL holder is not a dealer.

Postal Regulations, 432.2 Handguns:
Unloaded Handgun

Handguns — e.g., pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person — are nonmailable UNLESS mailed by a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or government of a state, territory, or district, and ONLY when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties AND upon filing the required affidavit or certificate, as applicable (see DMM 601.12.1.3–7):

Addressee: Officer of Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the commanding officer.
Addressee: Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the commanding officer.
Addressee: Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of the agency employing the addressee.
Addressee: Postal Service employees specifically authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of the agency employing the addressee.
Addressee: Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of the agency employing the addressee.
Addressee: Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district, or territory property.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau, or independent branch of the government agency employing the addressee.
Addressee: Purchasing agent or other designated member of an enforcement agency employing officers and personnel included in c, d, or e above.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of agency stating the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in c, d, or e above.
Addressee: Licensed manufacturers, importers, and dealers of firearms.
Affidavit or Certificate Requirements: Signed statement on PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms.

The mailer must be a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer mailing to another licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer.

Handguns may be mailed without regard to the requirements noted in items a–h if the addressee is the FBI (or its Director) or a scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers or state, district, or territory officers authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, and file with the Postmaster. The mailer must also state that the parcels containing handguns, or parts and components of handguns under 431.1, are being mailed in customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers, or importers of firearms.

Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to the PCSC for a ruling.

Registered Mail service is recommended.

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Re: A Catch 22

Post by mbott »

Werz wrote:When federal law simply regulates a "firearm," the definitions under 18 U.S.C. §921(a)(3) is what matters, at least under that chapter. However, when the regulation depends on whether something is a curio/relic, the age of the firearm is relevant.

Plus I like to add the reminder that offenses under Ohio do not use the federal definition. Frames, receivers, and anything not readily in a condition to expel a projectile is not a firearm, but an operable black powder muzzleloader is a firearm.
Not when it involves the mailing or receiving, via the USPS, of a handgun by someone who is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer of firearms.

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The fight will not be the way you want it to be. The fight will be the way it is. You must be flexible enough to adapt. -- Unknown
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Re: A Catch 22

Post by Werz »

mbott wrote:
Werz wrote:When federal law simply regulates a "firearm," the definitions under 18 U.S.C. §921(a)(3) is what matters, at least under that chapter. However, when the regulation depends on whether something is a curio/relic, the age of the firearm is relevant.

Plus I like to add the reminder that offenses under Ohio do not use the federal definition. Frames, receivers, and anything not readily in a condition to expel a projectile is not a firearm, but an operable black powder muzzleloader is a firearm.
Not when it involves the mailing or receiving, via the USPS, of a handgun by someone who is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer of firearms.
And that would be because those acts are covered by federal law, yes?
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
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