Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

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gobucks123
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Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by gobucks123 »

Hello,

I am currently in the process of applying for a CCW permit in Ohio where I live, and I have a handgun that I plan on carrying, but I was wondering what the legality of carrying one of the Henry AR-7 Survival rifles in my trunk would be. For anyone who is unaware, this is the rifle that comes apart and is stored in the stock, like this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=henry+s ... QqRQcAeruM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

I know that I would be able to carry it unloaded with no problems, but could I carry it with two loaded magazines when it is broken down and the magazines are in the stock?

If my question is unclear I can explain what I mean in more detail. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by JustaShooter »

With a CHL you can have loaded magazines anywhere in the vehicle except loaded in a long gun, so in my non-lawyerly opinion you would be fine with the rifle stored as you describe.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by Brian D. »

Welcome gobucks123!
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by djthomas »

I'm going to say it's not allowed because the definition of unloaded specifically states that there is no ammunition in the firearm. It doesn't say loaded in the magazine well, chamber, etc. It says in the firearm. A magazine in the stock is in the firearm.

It's not the intent of the law but that's how it reads. I'd even go so far as to say 90% of the time it'll never be a problem. But that other 10% of the time I think a compelling enough case could be made to ruin your day. You're better off using a fat rubber band or two to strap a loaded magazine to the side of the gun where it's even more accessible but not legally ambiguous.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by gobucks123 »

djthomas wrote:I'm going to say it's not allowed because the definition of unloaded specifically states that there is no ammunition in the firearm. It doesn't say loaded in the magazine well, chamber, etc. It says in the firearm. A magazine in the stock is in the firearm.

It's not the intent of the law but that's how it reads. I'd even go so far as to say 90% of the time it'll never be a problem. But that other 10% of the time I think a compelling enough case could be made to ruin your day. You're better off using a fat rubber band or two to strap a loaded magazine to the side of the gun where it's even more accessible but not legally ambiguous.
Thanks this is what I was looking for. You are probably right that it is better safe than sorry. Just curious, what law are you specifically referring to?
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by JustaShooter »

gobucks123 wrote:Just curious, what law are you specifically referring to?
ORC 2923.16 is the law regarding firearm transport in a motor vehicle. Section (C) outlines how to legally transport a firearm in a motor vehicle. Section (K)(5) deals with what constitutes "unloaded" in Ohio. Section (L) gives those with a CHL a further exemption on where loaded magazines can be transported.

And FWIW, after re-reading the sections in question, I agree with djthomas - although the intent may have been otherwise, your proposed method would technically be illegal under a plain reading of the law.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by AlanM »

IMHO: The BATFE defines a firearm to be the part that has the serial number on it.
When an AR-7 is broken down and stored in its stock, even if the magazines have cartridges in them, they are not in the gun's action.
In fact, when all the parts are stored in the stock (which at that time serves as the storage case) the gun is NOT in a dischargeable condition.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by djthomas »

Problem is Ohio law doesn't follow the BATFE definition of a firearm. The fact that a firearm is not in a dischargable condition is expressly irrelevant.

Under Ohio law (ORC 2923.11 (B)) a "Firearm" means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant. "Firearm" includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm that is inoperable but that can readily be rendered operable.

I don't have the case citations handy but over the years "readily be rendered operable" has come to pretty much mean capable of being put back together with ordinary tools and expertise. In the case I recall there were (at least) two firearms in question. The first had both ends of the barrel soldered. That was not a firearm because you had to get out your torch to remove the solder and there was a substantial risk of causing other damage with no guarantee of completely reversing the plugging procedure. The second had a tightly fitting dowel rod hammered down the barrel. That was a firearm because somebody could tap the plugging rod out with nothing more than a smaller rod and the ground.

There is no question that a broken down AR-7 is, at all times, a firearm. As I said previously, the improper handling statute does not differentiate between a magazine being in the action and internal storage within the firearm itself. It shouldn't, but it does. That's the risk you run with crafting precise language; there will be outliers that nobody ever thought of. This is one such item. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about firearms and since the magazine exception was added to the law 5+ years ago this use case never occurred to me.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I concur that the AR-7 is not a trunk gun if loaded mags are stored in the stock.

This is one of the reasons I bought an extra mag and keep it in the magazine well. If I can only keep it at home without unloading it, I may as well have as many rounds available when I take it out to plink.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by willbird »

If the driver and occupants of the car do not have CHL they have no duty to inform.

Also if the loaded magazines were locked inside one of these....

https://www.cashcountermachines.com/ima ... /nv200.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any officer who stopped you and wanted to look inside would need a warrant to do so if I understand correctly. Not advocating illegal behavior but it would offer some protections if a non CHL holder needed to operate a CHL holders vehicle and a loaded magazine was present in the vehicle. Of course if somebody was to consent to a search and open that container...all of those protections vanish.

The barrel length of the AR7 may require it to be stored differently than if it had an 18" or longer barrel too. Just a general comment but quite a few folks do not understand that sub 18" barrel long guns cannot just be laid in the back seat unloaded with action open.

2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
(A) No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm while in or on a motor vehicle.

(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.

(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

(1) In a closed package, box, or case;

(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;

(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by AlanM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

States that the barrel length is 406mm which is just a hair under 16".

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/11/henry- ... z5rKUvMX2i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shows it 16 1/8 "
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by calvin56 »

willbird wrote:If the driver and occupants of the car do not have CHL they have no duty to inform.

Also if the loaded magazines were locked inside one of these....

https://www.cashcountermachines.com/ima ... /nv200.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any officer who stopped you and wanted to look inside would need a warrant to do so if I understand correctly. Not advocating illegal behavior but it would offer some protections if a non CHL holder needed to operate a CHL holders vehicle and a loaded magazine was present in the vehicle. Of course if somebody was to consent to a search and open that container...all of those protections vanish.

The barrel length of the AR7 may require it to be stored differently than if it had an 18" or longer barrel too. Just a general comment but quite a few folks do not understand that sub 18" barrel long guns cannot just be laid in the back seat unloaded with action open.

2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
(A) No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm while in or on a motor vehicle.

(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.

(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

(1) In a closed package, box, or case;

(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;

(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.
Thanks for that. I'd heard that was changed from 18 to 16. I didn't take the time to look it up for myself, just took it at face value.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by willbird »

IMHO it would take a combination of things for anybody to ever be charged for having a rifle similar to what is sold at retail stored a given way because it had a sub 18" but 16" or over barrel. The Shockwave and similar may attract more attention though.

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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by ohiodff »

I believe Ohio law goes even beyond the issue of whether it's "in" the fireram or not, because a gun is considered loaded unless the magazine is in a separate container (emphasis mine):

(a) "Unloaded" means, with respect to a firearm other than a firearm described in division (K)(6) of this section, that no ammunition is in the firearm in question, no magazine or speed loader containing ammunition is inserted into the firearm in question, and one of the following applies:

(i) There is no ammunition in a magazine or speed loader that is in the vehicle in question and that may be used with the firearm in question.

(ii) Any magazine or speed loader that contains ammunition and that may be used with the firearm in question is stored in a compartment within the vehicle in question that cannot be accessed without leaving the vehicle or is stored in a container that provides complete and separate enclosure.

(b) For the purposes of division (K)(5)(a)(ii) of this section, a "container that provides complete and separate enclosure" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:

(i) A package, box, or case with multiple compartments, as long as the loaded magazine or speed loader and the firearm in question either are in separate compartments within the package, box, or case, or, if they are in the same compartment, the magazine or speed loader is contained within a separate enclosure in that compartment that does not contain the firearm and that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents or the firearm is contained within a separate enclosure of that nature in that compartment that does not contain the magazine or speed loader;

(ii) A pocket or other enclosure on the person of the person in question that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents.
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Re: Carrying a Henry Survival Rifle in the trunk of my car.

Post by JustaShooter »

ohiodff wrote:I believe Ohio law goes even beyond the issue of whether it's "in" the fireram or not, because a gun is considered loaded unless the magazine is in a separate container (emphasis mine):

(a) "Unloaded" means, with respect to a firearm other than a firearm described in division (K)(6) of this section, that no ammunition is in the firearm in question, no magazine or speed loader containing ammunition is inserted into the firearm in question, and one of the following applies:

(i) There is no ammunition in a magazine or speed loader that is in the vehicle in question and that may be used with the firearm in question.

(ii) Any magazine or speed loader that contains ammunition and that may be used with the firearm in question is stored in a compartment within the vehicle in question that cannot be accessed without leaving the vehicle or is stored in a container that provides complete and separate enclosure.

(b) For the purposes of division (K)(5)(a)(ii) of this section, a "container that provides complete and separate enclosure" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:

(i) A package, box, or case with multiple compartments, as long as the loaded magazine or speed loader and the firearm in question either are in separate compartments within the package, box, or case, or, if they are in the same compartment, the magazine or speed loader is contained within a separate enclosure in that compartment that does not contain the firearm and that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents or the firearm is contained within a separate enclosure of that nature in that compartment that does not contain the magazine or speed loader;

(ii) A pocket or other enclosure on the person of the person in question that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents.
While true, if you have a CHL there is an exception to the loaded magazine rule. From ORC 2923.16
(L) Divisions (K)(5)(a) and (b) of this section do not affect the authority of a person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license to have one or more magazines or speed loaders containing ammunition anywhere in a vehicle, without being transported as described in those divisions, as long as no ammunition is in a firearm, other than a handgun, in the vehicle other than as permitted under any other provision of this chapter. A person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license may have one or more magazines or speed loaders containing ammunition anywhere in a vehicle without further restriction, as long as no ammunition is in a firearm, other than a handgun, in the vehicle other than as permitted under any provision of this chapter.
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