carrying without having CHL present

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M-Quigley
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carrying without having CHL present

Post by M-Quigley »

I have a hypothetical question. Say for example someone has a Ohio CHL and their loaded handgun, but forgets to take their wallet with them when they drive to the store. Say for example they get pulled over. I know it's technically a violation of the law not to have the CHL with them but what kind of offense is it? A felony or misdemeanor?
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by JustaShooter »

If the person presents their CHL to the arresting LEA within 10 days, it is a Minor Misdemeanor.

ORC 2923.12 (F)
(2) Except as provided in division (F)(6) of this section, if a person being arrested for a violation of division (A)(2) of this section promptly produces a valid concealed handgun license, and if at the time of the violation the person was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, the officer shall not arrest the person for a violation of that division. If the person is not able to promptly produce any concealed handgun license and if the person is not in a place described in that section, the officer may arrest the person for a violation of that division, and the offender shall be punished as follows:

(a) The offender shall be guilty of a minor misdemeanor if both of the following apply:

(i) Within ten days after the arrest, the offender presents a concealed handgun license, which license was valid at the time of the arrest to the law enforcement agency that employs the arresting officer.

(ii) At the time of the arrest, the offender was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by Brian D. »

It shouldn't be an offense at all, in my opinion. But hey, if it can generate revenue for the legal system, the Statehouse would be loathe to get rid of the penalty.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by steves 50de »

Brian D. wrote:It shouldn't be an offense at all, in my opinion. But hey, if it can generate revenue for the legal system, the Statehouse would be loathe to get rid of the penalty.
I hear you Brian, The few time's i did it i just unload and head back home for the wallet. :roll:
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by M-Quigley »

steves 50de wrote:
Brian D. wrote:It shouldn't be an offense at all, in my opinion. But hey, if it can generate revenue for the legal system, the Statehouse would be loathe to get rid of the penalty.
I hear you Brian, The few time's i did it i just unload and head back home for the wallet. :roll:
That is what I suggested to someone recently. I met an acquaintance of mine as I was going into the store and he was walking out. I asked him how he was doing, and he quietly said, "Not good at the moment. I got up to the register and realized that I forgot my wallet." I told him the cashier was probably used to it, that he wasn't the first person that's happened to. He told me no, that wasn't the problem, that he was armed and didn't have his CHL with him. He said some cop was following him for about ten miles on the way to the store, but didn't pull him over. He was concerned about how to get home without getting arrested. I said just go out to his car and carefully unload the pistol, including the magazine. (he only had one) I was with him and it was unlikely anyone in the lot could've seen the gun. I said put the handgun in the truck and the loose ammo up front. Turned out he had a zipped up emergency kit in his truck so he was able to lock the slide back at and put it inside also. I had a small cardboard box in my car and I gave it to him to put the loose ammo in. Probably overkill but what the heck. Yes I think the law is stupid too, treating the CHL differently than a DL for no good reason. Fortunately Ohio's gun laws are ratcheting one tooth at a time in the right direction, even though it's glacier slow.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by JediSkipdogg »

JustaShooter wrote:If the person presents their CHL to the arresting LEA within 10 days, it is a Minor Misdemeanor.

ORC 2923.12 (F)
(2) Except as provided in division (F)(6) of this section, if a person being arrested for a violation of division (A)(2) of this section promptly produces a valid concealed handgun license, and if at the time of the violation the person was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, the officer shall not arrest the person for a violation of that division. If the person is not able to promptly produce any concealed handgun license and if the person is not in a place described in that section, the officer may arrest the person for a violation of that division, and the offender shall be punished as follows:

(a) The offender shall be guilty of a minor misdemeanor if both of the following apply:

(i) Within ten days after the arrest, the offender presents a concealed handgun license, which license was valid at the time of the arrest to the law enforcement agency that employs the arresting officer.

(ii) At the time of the arrest, the offender was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
ANd I still question how that even works. This is a case of the people in Columbus not knowing how law enforcement and the courts work.

So you are stopped and don't have your CHL. That is an M1 and the officer can arrest you and take you to jail. You get released and go get your CHL and show your CHL. So now you have now done jail time on a non-jailable MM. How is that legal?

Let's look at it another angle. You are stopped without your CHL. You are given a citation charged with an M1. The M1 is sent to court. You now go and show your CHL to the station. Few issues. ORC says you must show it to the "law enforcement agency." What do you do when the officer is off duty? Generally Officer Smith won't get involved in Officer Jone's arrest. What evidence do you get that you showed your CHL to the station? Most won't sit and wait till their report is updated showing they went and showed their CHL. The officer will also be required to dismiss the M1 and refile as an MM. That generally takes times and the new charge will be entered much faster than the old charge. Or it can be amended in court, but again, that keeps the M1 on your record longer.

My point, it's a convoluted process and one that there is no easy way to guarantee everything happens in the method they claim it will. And will a prosecutor or judge believe you when you say you made an effort to show it in 10 days but the station wouldn't work with you?
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by Brian D. »

Good of you to help out that acquaintance, M-Quigley. So, what town was this alleged "stalker" cop work for? It's not that I don't believe the story, just want to know.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by carmen fovozzo »

It's really funny in away that you have to go and get your license and then show them that you actually have one...like they don't know at this point of time..Arrest, jail...then go get it. I find that hiliarious..
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by M-Quigley »

Brian D. wrote:Good of you to help out that acquaintance, M-Quigley. So, what town was this alleged "stalker" cop work for? It's not that I don't believe the story, just want to know.
I didn't ask him what department but I know he has to take a state route to get to the store he was going to from where he lives. I'm guessing it was more likely it was a Sheriff's deputy or OSP, as a large section of that highway isn't in any city limits. I doubt whoever it was was actually stalking him either, probably just happened to be going the same direction. Sometimes you see LE that aren't on a specific call go down a road, turn around and go back. It doesn't mean they're following someone in particular, it just means they're patrolling or monitoring an area. When you've got someone behind you for a while it might feel like they're specifically following you though.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by schmieg »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:If the person presents their CHL to the arresting LEA within 10 days, it is a Minor Misdemeanor.

ORC 2923.12 (F)
(2) Except as provided in division (F)(6) of this section, if a person being arrested for a violation of division (A)(2) of this section promptly produces a valid concealed handgun license, and if at the time of the violation the person was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, the officer shall not arrest the person for a violation of that division. If the person is not able to promptly produce any concealed handgun license and if the person is not in a place described in that section, the officer may arrest the person for a violation of that division, and the offender shall be punished as follows:

(a) The offender shall be guilty of a minor misdemeanor if both of the following apply:

(i) Within ten days after the arrest, the offender presents a concealed handgun license, which license was valid at the time of the arrest to the law enforcement agency that employs the arresting officer.

(ii) At the time of the arrest, the offender was not knowingly in a place described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
ANd I still question how that even works. This is a case of the people in Columbus not knowing how law enforcement and the courts work.

So you are stopped and don't have your CHL. That is an M1 and the officer can arrest you and take you to jail. You get released and go get your CHL and show your CHL. So now you have now done jail time on a non-jailable MM. How is that legal?

Let's look at it another angle. You are stopped without your CHL. You are given a citation charged with an M1. The M1 is sent to court. You now go and show your CHL to the station. Few issues. ORC says you must show it to the "law enforcement agency." What do you do when the officer is off duty? Generally Officer Smith won't get involved in Officer Jone's arrest. What evidence do you get that you showed your CHL to the station? Most won't sit and wait till their report is updated showing they went and showed their CHL. The officer will also be required to dismiss the M1 and refile as an MM. That generally takes times and the new charge will be entered much faster than the old charge. Or it can be amended in court, but again, that keeps the M1 on your record longer.

My point, it's a convoluted process and one that there is no easy way to guarantee everything happens in the method they claim it will. And will a prosecutor or judge believe you when you say you made an effort to show it in 10 days but the station wouldn't work with you?
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by WestonDon »

M-Quigley wrote:
steves 50de wrote:
Brian D. wrote:It shouldn't be an offense at all, in my opinion. But hey, if it can generate revenue for the legal system, the Statehouse would be loathe to get rid of the penalty.
I hear you Brian, The few time's i did it i just unload and head back home for the wallet. :roll:
That is what I suggested to someone recently. I met an acquaintance of mine as I was going into the store and he was walking out. I asked him how he was doing, and he quietly said, "Not good at the moment. I got up to the register and realized that I forgot my wallet." I told him the cashier was probably used to it, that he wasn't the first person that's happened to. He told me no, that wasn't the problem, that he was armed and didn't have his CHL with him. He said some cop was following him for about ten miles on the way to the store, but didn't pull him over. He was concerned about how to get home without getting arrested. I said just go out to his car and carefully unload the pistol, including the magazine. (he only had one) I was with him and it was unlikely anyone in the lot could've seen the gun. I said put the handgun in the truck and the loose ammo up front. Turned out he had a zipped up emergency kit in his truck so he was able to lock the slide back at and put it inside also. I had a small cardboard box in my car and I gave it to him to put the loose ammo in. Probably overkill but what the heck. Yes I think the law is stupid too, treating the CHL differently than a DL for no good reason. Fortunately Ohio's gun laws are ratcheting one tooth at a time in the right direction, even though it's glacier slow.
Assuming you weren't there to help him and he drove home without unloading and he gets pulled over would he be required to notify or would 5th amendment apply?

If he doesn't notify but cop asks if he has a firearm and he refuses to answer (doesn't answer in the negative, just refuses to answer) and cop doesn't believe him and decides to search the car and him is it a legal search? I think I know the answer but the real question is what would be the practical ramifications of such a scenerio?
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by M-Quigley »

WestonDon wrote: Assuming you weren't there to help him and he drove home without unloading and he gets pulled over would he be required to notify or would 5th amendment apply?

If he doesn't notify but cop asks if he has a firearm and he refuses to answer (doesn't answer in the negative, just refuses to answer) and cop doesn't believe him and decides to search the car and him is it a legal search? I think I know the answer but the real question is what would be the practical ramifications of such a scenerio?
IDK the answer to the question but I assume that when it comes up on the computer the cop might interpret that that as PC for searching him at least, and then of course anything inside the car that is in plain view. Whether that would hold up in court IDK but I seriously doubt the LEO would merely do nothing. As far as me helping him, IDK how much I really helped him or not. I hope if I hadn't run into him that he would've eventually thought or hoped he would've thought of the pretty obvious solution himself. He looked pretty nervous though and sometimes that keeps people from seeing the obvious I guess.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by JediSkipdogg »

M-Quigley wrote:
WestonDon wrote: Assuming you weren't there to help him and he drove home without unloading and he gets pulled over would he be required to notify or would 5th amendment apply?

If he doesn't notify but cop asks if he has a firearm and he refuses to answer (doesn't answer in the negative, just refuses to answer) and cop doesn't believe him and decides to search the car and him is it a legal search? I think I know the answer but the real question is what would be the practical ramifications of such a scenerio?
IDK the answer to the question but I assume that when it comes up on the computer the cop might interpret that that as PC for searching him at least, and then of course anything inside the car that is in plain view. Whether that would hold up in court IDK but I seriously doubt the LEO would merely do nothing. As far as me helping him, IDK how much I really helped him or not. I hope if I hadn't run into him that he would've eventually thought or hoped he would've thought of the pretty obvious solution himself. He looked pretty nervous though and sometimes that keeps people from seeing the obvious I guess.
It would not be a legal search. He would need more probable cause than his computer screen saying one has a CHL. What crime is committed by having a CHL and not having a firearm on you? Now, can one fabricate PC? Sure. Then it's up to the defendant to prove that PC didn't exist at all and that can be a daunting task and one that if the officer is caught in, can ruin their entire career.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by M-Quigley »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:
WestonDon wrote: Assuming you weren't there to help him and he drove home without unloading and he gets pulled over would he be required to notify or would 5th amendment apply?

If he doesn't notify but cop asks if he has a firearm and he refuses to answer (doesn't answer in the negative, just refuses to answer) and cop doesn't believe him and decides to search the car and him is it a legal search? I think I know the answer but the real question is what would be the practical ramifications of such a scenerio?
IDK the answer to the question but I assume that when it comes up on the computer the cop might interpret that that as PC for searching him at least, and then of course anything inside the car that is in plain view. Whether that would hold up in court IDK but I seriously doubt the LEO would merely do nothing. As far as me helping him, IDK how much I really helped him or not. I hope if I hadn't run into him that he would've eventually thought or hoped he would've thought of the pretty obvious solution himself. He looked pretty nervous though and sometimes that keeps people from seeing the obvious I guess.
It would not be a legal search. He would need more probable cause than his computer screen saying one has a CHL. What crime is committed by having a CHL and not having a firearm on you? Now, can one fabricate PC? Sure. Then it's up to the defendant to prove that PC didn't exist at all and that can be a daunting task and one that if the officer is caught in, can ruin their entire career.
So then what you're saying is if the CHL doesn't notify and doesn't answer the question, the LEO has to basically let him go? (absent of fabricating PC I mean?)
It sounds like then if someone is accidently in a situation where they've forgetten their wallet but not the handgun to basically not answer the question, rather than answer the question, get arrested and have to get the charge reduced later if they're not going to get searched anyway.

Of course I'm referring to a situation where the driver realizes they've forgotten the CHL after getting stopped not before. (like my friend who didn't realize he'd forgotten his wallet until after he got to the store.) Obviously if you realize before you're pulled over you have a problem, fixing the problem would be the more prudent course of action than doing nothing and hoping for the best.

I was curious so I called him yesterday to ask him if everything went okay on his way home. He said he didn't see a single cop on the way home. :) Still, better safe than sorry.
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Re: carrying without having CHL present

Post by schmieg »

M-Quigley wrote:
WestonDon wrote: Assuming you weren't there to help him and he drove home without unloading and he gets pulled over would he be required to notify or would 5th amendment apply?

If he doesn't notify but cop asks if he has a firearm and he refuses to answer (doesn't answer in the negative, just refuses to answer) and cop doesn't believe him and decides to search the car and him is it a legal search? I think I know the answer but the real question is what would be the practical ramifications of such a scenerio?
IDK the answer to the question but I assume that when it comes up on the computer the cop might interpret that that as PC for searching him at least, and then of course anything inside the car that is in plain view. Whether that would hold up in court IDK but I seriously doubt the LEO would merely do nothing. As far as me helping him, IDK how much I really helped him or not. I hope if I hadn't run into him that he would've eventually thought or hoped he would've thought of the pretty obvious solution himself. He looked pretty nervous though and sometimes that keeps people from seeing the obvious I guess.
I think the existence of a license would be a big overreach on the part of the officer to qualify that as PC, but, since it's a gun, at least some courts would probably go along with him. It would probably depend on how the licensee refused to answer the question as to whether it constituted probable cause. It's certainly not as clear cut as the cases in Wisconsin where the police were stopping open carriers to demand to see if they had a license. If that had been upheld, the police could argue that they could stop anyone driving a car to see if they had a license.
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