OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators
-
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:35 pm
OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
I've heard more than once that, for legal reasons, it is advisable to carry the same ammunition as local law enforcement. I'm not saying I agree or not, but does anyone know what ammunition Ohio State Highway Patrol or Columbus Division of Police use?
- JediSkipdogg
- Posts: 10257
- Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
- Location: Batavia
- Contact:
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)
What you don't want to do is carry those wacky rounds out there. The zombie killer or shrapnel splitting ammo. My opinion is to carry Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST (or similar line.) The reason being is that both of those rounds/brands are tried and tested. They are both rated at personal protection and not "killer" rounds. Remember, anything can be used against you in a court of law. Now, the odds of law enforcement or the court analyzing what is exactly in the gun are small. But it's always a possibility if you have a borderline bad shoot.
What you don't want to do is carry those wacky rounds out there. The zombie killer or shrapnel splitting ammo. My opinion is to carry Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST (or similar line.) The reason being is that both of those rounds/brands are tried and tested. They are both rated at personal protection and not "killer" rounds. Remember, anything can be used against you in a court of law. Now, the odds of law enforcement or the court analyzing what is exactly in the gun are small. But it's always a possibility if you have a borderline bad shoot.
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
- JustaShooter
- OFCC Coordinator
- Posts: 5800
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:08 pm
- Location: Akron/Canton Area
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
Not sure what Ohio State Highway Patrol or Columbus Division of Police use, but I'm pretty sure my local sheriff department issues Winchester Ranger T-Series. Personally, although I've heard the suggestion of carrying what your local LEOs carry, I choose to carry the most effective personal defense ammo I can find. My research tells me that Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot (followed closely by Winchester Ranger T-Series) are the top tier so that's what I carry. I buy a 50-round box of one (usually HST) and run them all through my carry gun using each magazine I will use for carry, and if it runs them all flawlessly I buy another 50-round box and load up. If there are any ammo-related malfunctions I buy a box of the next and repeat the test. If it failed both brands, I'd be talking to the gun's manufacturer to see about returning it for service. (Never had to, but it could happen.)
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol & Rifle Instructor
Want to become more active with OFCC and help fight for your rights? Click Here!
-
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 7481
- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:53 pm
- Location: Sandusky County
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
My first carry gun was a very light Kel-tec P11 so I went for a 115 gr. bullet in my ammo. Hornady XTP fed very well and had good ballistics. Now I carry Zombie from Hornady which is identical to Hornady Critical Defense (except it has yellow polymer center instead of red) and Hornady Critical Duty which is designed for LEO. Duty doesn't come in 115 gr so I'll continue with the Hornady that works in my particular pistol.
Famous last words: "I just drank What?!-Socrates
bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95
The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95
The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
-
- Posts: 16229
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
- Location: SW Ohio
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
Gun writer/ trainer Massad Ayoob was the first one I remember suggesting this. He works with students all over the U.S., including some where gun ownership is frowned upon to begin with.JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
- JediSkipdogg
- Posts: 10257
- Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:03 pm
- Location: Batavia
- Contact:
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
I was waiting for someone to bring him up. I agree with a lot of his logic, but he seems to think every shooting is going to trial and you need an expert to testify on your handgun being a good personal protection weapon and the ammo in it is legit. He's also against carrying reloads, which I know many are, but if you have done it for decades, and have had no issues, I see nothing wrong with it. He looks at the extreme what could come in to play, and from my experience working in law enforcement and with the courts, I've never seen them heavily question the weapon, type of weapon used, or the ammo unless the shooting was really unjustified.Brian D. wrote:Gun writer/ trainer Massad Ayoob was the first one I remember suggesting this. He works with students all over the U.S., including some where gun ownership is frowned upon to begin with.JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)
Carrying Concealed Handguns - Signage Answers
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
-
- Posts: 16229
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
- Location: SW Ohio
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
Yeah, that may generally* be the case here, and in the other "gun-friendly" states across the U.S. But, he works all over the country. One of Ayoob's books is titled "In the Gravest Extreme". He told me once that was also a sideways reference to the legal/civil aftermath of using lethal force, even if a shooting was justified.JediSkipdogg wrote:I was waiting for someone to bring him up. I agree with a lot of his logic, but he seems to think every shooting is going to trial and you need an expert to testify on your handgun being a good personal protection weapon and the ammo in it is legit. He's also against carrying reloads, which I know many are, but if you have done it for decades, and have had no issues, I see nothing wrong with it. He looks at the extreme what could come in to play, and from my experience working in law enforcement and with the courts, I've never seen them heavily question the weapon, type of weapon used, or the ammo unless the shooting was really unjustified.Brian D. wrote:Gun writer/ trainer Massad Ayoob was the first one I remember suggesting this. He works with students all over the U.S., including some where gun ownership is frowned upon to begin with.JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)
* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
- djthomas
- Posts: 5961
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:09 am
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
I've not seen a single case in Cuyahoga County (and I've followed many) where the charging decision or final outcome turned on the ammunition used.Brian D. wrote:* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.
-
- Posts: 16229
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:42 pm
- Location: SW Ohio
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
We haven't had a prosecutor with a "-D" behind his/her name down here, forever. It's just a regional thing, DJT.djthomas wrote:I've not seen a single case in Cuyahoga County (and I've followed many) where the charging decision or final outcome turned on the ammunition used.Brian D. wrote:* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
********************************************************************************
1911 and Browning Hi Power Enthusianado.
-
- Posts: 4782
- Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
- Location: Western Ohio
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
I haven't read everything he's written, but what I have seen doesn't suggest the charging decision or final outcomes of court cases turned on the ammo, it's just that the issue of ammo could potentially and has been brought up in court, even if unsuccessfully. For example, he mentioned a case where the prosecutor brought up the use of hollow point ammo in a (desperate ?) attempt to sway the minds of the jurors. It may or may not have had something to do with the mindset of the shooter, which can be an issue sometimes in court.djthomas wrote:I've not seen a single case in Cuyahoga County (and I've followed many) where the charging decision or final outcome turned on the ammunition used.Brian D. wrote:* Cleveland, Youngstown, etc....let's just say if i ever have to physically defend myself with a firearm in Ohio, I hope it's not up that way.
Opposing counsel was able to ask one of the LE witnesses during the trial what kind of ammo various area departments used. The prosecution initially objected to the question being asked, but since the prosecutor made an issue out of the ammo, the judge allowed the questioning. When the witness testified that the area agencies also used HP ammo, it took the wind out of the sails of that argument with the jurors. (if there was any to begin with) The verdict was not guilty. Since this case happened decades ago, I doubt it would be an issue today.
The main issue Mas Ayoob brought up about handloads had to do with so called "exemplar" rounds being available, so ballistic testing could properly detirmine probable distances to which the gun was fired, based on powder patterns.
Speaking of Mas Ayoob, he had a ND during a class this year.
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91978" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 11446
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:19 am
- Location: Exit 13 on the ohio Turnpike :-)
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
Some of the issues may come up in civil court rather than criminal court. And Tort Reform stops a lot of stuff from ever going to civil court.
Bill
Bill
Have a great day today unless you have made other plans .
- sd790
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:40 pm
- Location: Delaware
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
There is no such thing as a "good shoot" or "borderline bad shoot". All self defense uses of a firearm are "bad shoots".JediSkipdogg wrote:I've never heard it stated that way (to carry what LE uses.)
What you don't want to do is carry those wacky rounds out there. The zombie killer or shrapnel splitting ammo. My opinion is to carry Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST (or similar line.) The reason being is that both of those rounds/brands are tried and tested. They are both rated at personal protection and not "killer" rounds. Remember, anything can be used against you in a court of law. Now, the odds of law enforcement or the court analyzing what is exactly in the gun are small. But it's always a possibility if you have a borderline bad shoot.
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
- Sevens
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 7526
- Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
- Location: Far East Side of CBus
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
A lot of terrific posts in this discussion but at the same you question Ayoob's motive for making an ammo related suggestion, you simply have to keep in mind that he travels all over the country to take part in trials as an expert witness.
It's not like he is saying "if you do THIS then xxx will happen", he is merely saying that when you are knee deep in to the situation, these are possibilities and here are the best methods to counter those possibilities.
He backs this up with tangible experience.
What he writes is not law and it isn't the final answer or a magic talisman, it's simply advice backed by heavily researched second person experience and often by first person experience.
It's not like he is saying "if you do THIS then xxx will happen", he is merely saying that when you are knee deep in to the situation, these are possibilities and here are the best methods to counter those possibilities.
He backs this up with tangible experience.
What he writes is not law and it isn't the final answer or a magic talisman, it's simply advice backed by heavily researched second person experience and often by first person experience.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!
- Bruenor
- Posts: 7306
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 pm
- Location: Geneva, OH
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
I've always looked at the recommendation of Massad Ayoob as, if you do certain things, it removes the ability for it to easily be used against you in court. Don't provide them with any rope to use against you, make them bring their own.
Most likely these scenarios mentioned will never happen to you in court, that you should have to worry about being accused of manufacturing your own special extra deadly ammo, modifying a firearm to make it shoot faster so it's mroe deadly or having a hair trigger so you accidentally shot someone, instead of intentionally defended yourself.
From that perspective, using an unmodified firearm, with factory ammunition the same as the LEO's use. It's going to be harder for someone to make a jury believe any of those choices are unreasonable. I don't want to have to pay a lawyer more money to defend the merits of my firearms modifications or my custom defensive loads, in front of a jury that most likely has no idea about firearms, firearms modifications, or reloading ammunition.
At least that's how I've always viewed at his recommendations.
Most likely these scenarios mentioned will never happen to you in court, that you should have to worry about being accused of manufacturing your own special extra deadly ammo, modifying a firearm to make it shoot faster so it's mroe deadly or having a hair trigger so you accidentally shot someone, instead of intentionally defended yourself.
From that perspective, using an unmodified firearm, with factory ammunition the same as the LEO's use. It's going to be harder for someone to make a jury believe any of those choices are unreasonable. I don't want to have to pay a lawyer more money to defend the merits of my firearms modifications or my custom defensive loads, in front of a jury that most likely has no idea about firearms, firearms modifications, or reloading ammunition.
At least that's how I've always viewed at his recommendations.
Μολὼν λαβέ
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
- Sevens
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 7526
- Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:30 am
- Location: Far East Side of CBus
Re: OSHP & CDP standard issue ammunition
Exactly.
The other reason he leans against handloads for defensive use is that prosecutors tend to want to do ballistic testing on the gun and ammo used, and handloads are always going to be a home brew that is only as consistent as the guy pulling the press handle and any box of ammo has no agreed-upon standard, while a known factory ammo can simply be purchased and tested with reasonable expectation that you can replicate in a lab the event in question.
This specifically came up in a suicide case that was tried as a homicide when the deceased used handloads.
Never any magic answer, just attempts to stack things in your favor.
The other reason he leans against handloads for defensive use is that prosecutors tend to want to do ballistic testing on the gun and ammo used, and handloads are always going to be a home brew that is only as consistent as the guy pulling the press handle and any box of ammo has no agreed-upon standard, while a known factory ammo can simply be purchased and tested with reasonable expectation that you can replicate in a lab the event in question.
This specifically came up in a suicide case that was tried as a homicide when the deceased used handloads.
Never any magic answer, just attempts to stack things in your favor.
I like to swap brass... and I'm looking for .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, .380 Auto and 10mm. If you have some and would like to swap for something else, send me a note!