Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

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EChryst
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by EChryst »

The only thing I have to add, and take it for what it's worth:

The draw stroke. Instead of arcing out of the holster and acquiring sights at full presentation. I feel like you could definitely improve sight acquisition and therefore decrease your time with with more of a vertical draw stroke, collecting the pistol at the chest level, close to the chest. From there pressing out along the "vertical eye line" if you would call it that.

Paul Gomez does a good job of explaining it here https://youtu.be/7OZfgutNufU, starting at 0:37.

I'm pretty much set with this as my draw stroke, mostly from it's application outside of the actual full presentation, standard shooting "problem." In terms of force on force training, pressure testing with an uncooperative partner and extreme close quarters shooting, this entire package works for me.
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jeep45238
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

Thanks, much appreciated!
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by TSiWRX »

To start off with a disclaimer: I'm definitely not the fastest draw, and I lack both real-life violent-encounters experience as well as competition background.

That said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ This really helped me in terms of the efficiency of the drawstroke. What Avery says there just makes sense to me, and the quantified proof of the shot-timer confirms it.

I'm still an "out, rotate, up-and-punch-out" kind of guy. But since seeing that video, I'm less abrupt in my punch-out: realizing that while it's called "punching-out," I'm not trying to muzzle-strike someone - I want my sights to settle on the target as quickly as I can...throwing the gun out there just isn't the best at doing that.

There's really just a million and a half ways to do this, and all of them have their pros and cons. To me, the efficiency really comes from consistency: doing it the same each and every time. Towards this end, you'll also want to clarify your mission statement. For you, as you stated in your OP, concealed-carry isn't an option at this time, so if this is more about competition for you, you need to find what techniques make the most sense for you in that context.

For me, since that mission is self-defense (for as much as I want to get into competition shooting, my schedule has been unforgiving), everything finds its foundation from that context. While I now "float" that gun out to the stop, I rotate early and "punch-out" from high-compressed-ready (which actually starts even earlier, with the vertical portion of my draw-stroke ending at what's essentially the retention firing position high up in the armpit) because that gets the muzzle oriented towards the threat as early as I can. As EChryst noted, that nearly straight out horizontal "push" for me allows me to pick up my sights before the package is anywhere near complete.

On your slow-mo, as you noted in your previous post, you're not prepping the trigger until you're fully on-target. With the mile-and-a-half-first-shot-DA, in the context that I know I will be shooting as soon as I get an acceptable sight-picture, I'd be prepping that trigger earlier, for-sure.

Finally, your head dips quite a bit (and then floats up again by a little) during the draw. From the competition shooters, I learned to simply bring the gun to my eyes - the less overall movement there is, the better. In a "fight" context, particularly a reactive one, this would be harder to achieve, but in a competition context, since you know you are about to shoot from your static position, I would suggest that you simply start from whatever your most comfortable and consistent shooting stance/presentation will be, and make the draw as much of a one-dimensional as possible the movement of delivering the sight package to your eyes.

----

And to commiserate as well as wallow in self-pity :oops: :P :

SHO, consistently, my problem has been recoil anticipation, with either hand. Two winters ago with the help of Keith Campbell (and his son Kyle) of Commence Fire Training Academy, I was able to eventually kick this out of my dominant hand, but I am still very conscious of my deficiencies, here.

And as anyone who attended yesterday's BFA training class with Andrew Blubaugh of Apex Shooting and Tactics can tell you, my non-dominant hand is embarrassingly weak where it comes to SHO marksmanship. The combination of trigger-torque and recoil anticipation just kills it for me.

Much practice is needed, for me.
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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jeep45238
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

To note, this is cross posted to get different feedback from folks with different backgrounds. The more eyes the better, and the more in depth the feedback will be after culling it all together.

The inputs I’ve been given so far, is focusing on changing from arcing out of the holster and acquiring sights then popping a shot, to coming out of the holster up without a bunch of wasted body motion and coming out at a near 90 degree angle from my chest. Working on getting the trigger in motion while the pistol is moving towards it’s final resting point is another major point of improvement.

I messed around with nothing in my hands while cooking dinner and noticed that I need a straight drop holster to make this happen, but my holster is a 10 degree forward cant. To make that cant work I need to move the holster way, way far back on my waist to where I’m not exactly looking forward to doing it. I need to play with my mag carrier location too - it might make a lot of sense for me to get a competition belt/war belt to set it up and leave everything in place. Similar concept as picking one platform and keeping it - minimize the changes in the process to focus on the technique, to grow my skill set.

That said, I bought back my Ruger Mark 1 pistol from a buddy of mine for the price I sold it to him, and my initial purchase price was $20. A full detail strip and scraping all the caked on crud made a big improvement on trigger pull. I need to get a few more mags for it to make the most out of my time on the range since I just have one right now. I do miss having a slide release/bolt hold back, but for the price there’s no reason to complain. The reason for purchase was cheap marksmanship practice, and there’s no fooling with trying to convince myself that it’s good for anything else. The lack of recoil and motion in my hand are a fraction of 9mm, to say .40SW, so know what the tools are in the tool box and what they’re to be used for. This is going to save a lot of time for me, as I cast my own 9mm bullets and coat them myself as well.

A quick trip to the range today with the dog and I humbled myself even more than with the Beretta. The sights are really setup for precision in comparison, but it also makes it much easier for me to see how changes in grips change how the sight picture changes. It will probably help with sight tracking as well, since the front sight moves less under recoil and doesn’t reciprocate backwards. That will make for less motion and be easier for me to see what’s going on in the moment, but I need to avoid falling into a trap. The effort needed to track sights on this vs. the B92 is huge, and if I put the same effort as the .22LR into tracking I will be far behind the 8 ball so to speak.

Job wise things have changed a lot, for the better if you ask me. My unit got me a temporary job on a 4-10 schedule as a GS-11 until school starts, which far trumps the $8.50 my university was paying me. The major downside is an 80 mile one way commute onto a military base, which makes for a limited amount of time of dry fire and live fire practice for the time being. From a shooter’s stand point, I’m going to have to be more disciplined with my limited time on the range. Lifting will probably change as well since I’m going to try and use the gym on base during lunch to maximize my free time at home.
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by TSiWRX »

jeep45238 wrote:To note, this is cross posted to get different feedback from folks with different backgrounds. The more eyes the better, and the more in depth the feedback will be after culling it all together.
+1.

Also, while undoubtedly there will be some differences of opinion, I think that is important (and good), as there's many different ways to skin that same cat. You'll find some variations of a certain technique to work better/worse for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Even among the top shooters, that "thumbs forward grip" shows significant and even crucial differences of details from one individual to the next.
I messed around with nothing in my hands while cooking dinner and noticed that I need a straight drop holster to make this happen, but my holster is a 10 degree forward cant. To make that cant work I need to move the holster way, way far back on my waist to where I’m not exactly looking forward to doing it. I need to play with my mag carrier location too - it might make a lot of sense for me to get a competition belt/war belt to set it up and leave everything in place. Similar concept as picking one platform and keeping it - minimize the changes in the process to focus on the technique, to grow my skill set.
Except for deep-concealment considerations, I try to keep all of my gear always in the same place, regardless of open-access or under cover clothing. This even extends to when I train/practice - for example: if from concealment, I'll use hard kydex mag-holders to feed my IWB concealment mag holder.

I'm glad you brought up the consideration of gear and gear setup. With the holster drop angle, again, depending on the individual shooter, they may be able to push that 10-degree cant/rake as far forward as 2:30 without actually losing speed/time. Obviously, for you, that's a no go. Good call on examining gear/setup!
Allen - Shaker Heights, Ohio
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

Long overdue, but better to do a weekly summary than drop it all together.

Work is giving me an hour to workout on the clock, so I'm hopping off base and over to one of the gyms at the end of my shift. Machine weights are different than what I've been using, so the numbers don't mean much on those for this week. I'm working 4 10's, and have to leave the house at 0415 to get to work on time, wakup at 0330.


Lifting work:
Monday
-Barbell squats 130x2, 130x2, 140x2, 140x2, 120x2
-Leg press 270x3, 300x3, 310x3
-Leg extention 260x6, 260x6, 260x10 (machine maxes at 260, no safe way to add weight to the stack)
-Romanian deadlift 180x3, 190x3, 200x3 (need to buy wrist straps for these)
-Lying leg curl 125x6, 130x6, 135x4
-Barbell calf raises 330x4, 330x4, 330x4
-Seated calf raises 225x6, 225x6, 230x6

Tuesday
-Bench Press 90x2, 95x2, 85x1, 80x2, 75x3
-Incline dumbell press 55x3, 55x3, 55x3, 55x3
-Dumbell flies 30x6, 35x6, 40x6
-Standing military press (barbell) 20x3, 25x3, 20x4
-Side lateral raise 25x6, 20x6, 20x6
-Face pull 72.5x6, 100x6, 80x6
-Barbell shrug 250x3, 240x3, 230x3 (need to buy wrist straps for these)
-Close grip bench press 55x3, 60x3, 65x3
-Standing dumbell tricep extention 50x6, 55x6, 60x6

Wednesday
-45 minutes running around on base

Thursday
-Deadlift 230x2, 250x2, 260x1, 240x2, 250x2
-Bentover barbell row 100x4, 110x4, 120x4
-Widegrip lat pulldown 160x4, 170x4, 160x4
-Straight arm pulldown 57.5x6, 57.5x6, 65x6
-Barbell curls 40x4, 40x4, 35x5
-Incline dumbell curl 35x6, 30x6, 30x6
-Preacher curl 35x6, 45x6, 50x6


Diet has been mostly chicken, turkey, veggies, and rice. Today I had a cheat meal on base, the leadership hosted a pig roast with mac & cheese, greenbeans, slaw, etc. etc. Drinking a solid .75-1.25 gallons of water a day now. Weight is 183 pounds, body fat% unknown at the moment. Lifting heavy has been bumping up the poundage lately, so I'll do more heavy lifting next week and then start mixing it up some.



Shooting wise no live fire yet this week, did 2 hand and 1 hand wall drills after dinner tonight and will be working in some draw work tomorrow. Planning on getting to the range with the .22 for some marksmanship work and do a FAST from concealment during the weekend.
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

Been slacking on getting the livefire and dryfire in, as well as keeping this journal up to date. I'm going to make sure I do 3 minutes draws every evening this week and work on just that movement, and 2 minutes at the end of that working on the press out.

Live fire consisted of 100 rounds on the July 8th, doing 26662 and shooting 2 inch circles from 5 out to 10 yards. Pushed my speed a bit and dropped more shots than I was happy with, but finding your weaknesses is part of growing. I had one dryfire practice prior to this journal, and I need to do a lot of work with one hand. Especially support side.

We did have a local IDPA match, and I got 12 out of 54 overall. My buddy Sean beat me by less than a second, with the same points down. He aims to shoot fast always, and I only really gave it the gas pedal on the last stage. Next month I'm going to bring some speed to the game. For those interested in seeing the scoring, you can find this month's here: https://www.uberscoremaster.com/osm_mat ... 401C3B22E3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Last month's score is here (I got 14): https://www.uberscoremaster.com/osm_mat ... 30860FCF30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm happy with the progress, and knowing that I can push the speed more and keep better groupings than I thought. The stage I pushed was stage 6 of this month (first link).


Weight lifting is as follows:
July 4 (Legs for 'Merica)
-Barbell squats 140x2, 150x2, 160x2, 170x2, 180x2
-Leg press 305x3, 320x3, 350x3
-Leg Extention (maxes @ 260) 260x8, 260x10, 260x10
-Romanian Deadlift 210x2, 210x3, 220x2
-Lying leg curl 150x4, 140x5, 135x6
-Barbell standing calf raises 335x6, 340x6, 340x6
-Seated calf raises 230x6, 235x6, 240x6

5JUL16
-Bench press 90x2, 95x2, 100x1 95x2 95x2
-Incline dumbell press 40x10 40x8 40x10 40x9 (shoulders felt very weak going up, had no spotter available)
-Dumbell flies 40x6 35x9 30x9
-Standing military press (barbell) 25x3 30x3 35x3
-Side lateral raises 25x6 25x6 25x8
-Face pull (diff. machine, weights not comparable) 95x6 87.5x6 87.5x6
-Barbell shrug 270x3 270x3 300x3
-Close grip bench press 60x3 70x3 75x2
-Dumbell tricep extention 60x6 60x2 (shoulder began to hurt, not going to risk injury)

7JUL16
-Deadlift 250x2 240x2 230x2
-Bentover barbell row 110x4 130x4 140x4
-Wide grip lat pulldown 170x4 180x3 140x6
-Straight arm pulldown (diff machine, weights not comparable) 65x6 72.5x4 50x8
-Barbell curl 40x4 45x4 50x3
-Incline dumbell curl 35x6 40x4 35x5
-Preacher curl 50x6 55x6 55x6

11JUL16
-Pullups 4 sets of 10, 1st assisted by 30lbs, 2nd by 30lbs, 3rd by 40lbs, 4th by 50lbs
-Cable rows 110x11 100x11 100x11 Drop set 100x10, 90x10, 70x10
-Close-grip front lat pulldown 100x12, 90x12 Dropset 90x12 70x10
-1 arm dumbell row 55x12 55x11 Dropset 55x11 45x7
-Straight arm pulldown (rope attachment, new machine, weights not comparable) 40x12 40x12 35x13 30x13 20x20
-EZ bar curl -strict 20x14, 25x12, cheater 25x6, 30x5
-Incline dumbell curl 25x9, 20x7
Superset
-Spider curls 20x9, Hammer curls 20x5 Spider curl 20x8, hammer curls 20x7 (due to time, had to cut out 2 sets)
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

Time to update from the 13th. Headed to the range in an hour or two then the gym, till then this will suffice.

13JUL16
-5 min treadmill, 10minute/mile pace
-Stiff leg deadlift 70x10 100x12 140x12 160x8 180x4
-Seated leg curl 110x12 150x12 160x10 150x8 130x10 110x12 110x12 120x10
-Superset, Leg extention/sicssor jumps 150x12/15 190x12/17
-Superset, hanging leg raise/weighted crunch on ball 15/10x15 13/10x13
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

15JUL16

Headed to the rifle range with my AK74 to get a break from pistols, get a rough zero, and bang some steel at 200. It's been years since I've shot beyond 25-30 yards, so this was a much needed change of pace.

Image
Image

I must say I love finally being a member of a private club.

After doing a rough zero from 200 I moved down to verify the zero I had and check on a paper target. Then walked back to the 190 or so yard marker and shot standing for a few rounds before heading over to the pistol range. I was rewarded with a thunk each time before I ran out of ammo. I'll take this for a rusty shooter with astimatizm, no magnification, surplus ammo, and standing with a Vickers sling. If this group was prone with a USGI sling I would have been livid at myself.

Image

Off to the pistol bays I went to do some one handed work after being humbled by it yet again during a match (worse than usual though). I shot some circles (bottom right, 2 hand, upper right right handed, upper left left handed, in that order) with the Mark 2 and noticed something I don't see with the Beretta. When releasing pressure with my pinky finger, I get one hand groups that are similar to my 2 hand groups - but when I mash and hold for dear life the groups are twice as large.

Image

I put up another target and did the top 2 mash grips for right/left, and the bottom 2 with less pressure from my pinky on the bottom and had the same results as this target. It is possible that I was tired and had a lazy focus, but replication from both hands leads me to believe otherwise. I think since there's such a large difference in grip size between a B92 and a MK2 that grip techniques have a much more profound effect with the .22LR since there's more 'air space' on it. I need to cast some 9mm and load before I can verify the same with the Beretta.

15JUL16 was a twofer, hitting up the gym on the way home.
-Dumbell shoulder press 35x15 35x12 (drop) 30x12 25x6
-Side lateral raise 15x16 15x16 (drop) 15x16 10x16 5x12
-Reverse machine flies 85x15 90x15 95x12 100x10 95x12
Superset -front barbell raise/barbell row 15x15/30x10 20x15/20x15 25x13/25x10
-Barbell shrug 180x12 200x12 200x12 230x10 250x8
-Barbell standing calf raises 270x9 270x11 290x10 305x10
-Seated calf raises 135x10 135x14 150x13 150x11

17JUL16
-Incline dumbell press 25x15 45x12 50x12 55x8 (drop) 45x12 35x7 25x11 15x9
-Incline dumbell flies 45x9 45x7 40x8 (drop) 40x8 30x8
-Dumbell bench press 50x7 50x9 50x9 (drop) 50x9 35x8
Superset -chest dips/incline pushups 9/8 10/6 11/6
Superset -Lying tricep press/close grip bench press 35x12/50x5 30x14/30x10 25/16 25/14 20x17/20x11
-Tricep pushdown (rope) 60x16 70x16 75x16
-Seated tricep extention 35x9 30x10 20x11 15x20
Superset -hanging leg raise/weighted crunch on ball/decline reverse crunch 17/10x15/10 20/10x20/12 18/10x17/11

Did 5 minutes of draw work and eliminated a majority of the wasted upperbody movement. Will be hunting for a good deal on a holster that rides .5 inch lower than what I currently have. Spent another 5 minutes working on the press out, and found that if I exaggerate lifting the front sight a bit I can pick it up and push direct to the target with little to no movement. I'll be painting the front sight dot bright green to help aquire it a bit faster. Spent another 2 minutes per hand doing one hand double action presses. Forearms are killing me.
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by TSiWRX »

jeep45238 wrote:When releasing pressure with my pinky finger, I get one hand groups that are similar to my 2 hand groups - but when I mash and hold for dear life the groups are twice as large.
For me, there's a magic distance and tempo at which the transition from a "convulsive grip" to a more controlled grip must occur, to achieve certain levels of precision/accuracy.

Close-in and shooting for speed - where recoil-mitigation is my main goal - I grip on like there's no tomorrow, and it helps.

When the BSA template is pushed towards the "accuracy" side of the equation, I find that to achieve the results I want, I need to pay a lot more attention to what happens with those bottom two fingers on the dominant grip.

As for the support-hand-only? I'm still working on that! :oops: :)
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

I've been down in the .14 splits consistent before, but I've never focused purely on accuracy for the pistol before, hence the .22trainer. 9mm will come out for speed work and verification of lessons from the .22

Messed around with reloads and draws on camera, and it's a lot cleaner/faster. Time to really hammer them home to drop the slide too.
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by TSiWRX »

jeep45238 wrote:I've been down in the .14 splits consistent before, but I've never focused purely on accuracy for the pistol before, hence the .22trainer. 9mm will come out for speed work and verification of lessons from the .22
:) That's blazin'! :) I can't hit anything when I'm going that fast, and even then, my finger seems to only want to go that fast occasionally.

I need to play more video-games and get that trigger speed up! :oops: :P
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

I've never been much into video games - those splits were with a 1911 that had a STI trigger bow I had tuned quite a bit, and looking back on should have been a range only gun. I also shot it enough on plate racks that the front sight dovetail would open up and suddenly I was missing right/left froma loose front sight. The thing that helped a lot with trigger finger speed for me was a .22LR conversion in an AR. Similar trigger travel and reset to a 1911 (actually more than my old one), with more rounds/mag and cheaper to practice. 1911 mags were 7-10 rounds, so my finger always had a bit of a rest in between strings.

I don't see myself hitting those speeds with a Beretta for a long time, and franky that's alright. My accuracy standard then was much lower than it is now.
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by TSiWRX »

jeep45238 wrote:I've never been much into video games
Playing Galaga anew, after some 25+ years of not having had a go at that game, made me recall my deficits of the trigger finger/hand/arm. :lol:

Actually, playing paintball in the early 90s also demonstrated that this was not an area where I excelled. :oops: :P
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Re: Jeep's getting back into the groove - a training journey

Post by jeep45238 »

Pistol skills-

18JUL16
Spent 10 minutes doing on doing draw work, and 2 minutes doing strong hand and weak hand only trigger manipulations. Trigger manipulations were double action, keeping the trigger back, resetting by racking the slide, then a single action press. Rinse and repeat for both hands 2 minutes each, no 2 hand work involved.

19JUL16
Spent every moment my hands were’t occupied practicing my reloads, as I frankly suck at them. With my old 1911 and M&P if I seated hard with a forward/up motion of my palm it would drop the slides with 199% reliability. I determined that I can do this with the Beretta with pure vertical seating motion of the palm. However, this is very dependent upon the weight of the magazine going in (read- how many rounds). With 1 snap cap I had 50% repeatability. With 5 in it, I had repeatability going up to 75%. I only did this once with a full mag of ammo since I want to minimize admin handling, but it did function far easier with the weight of ammo in the magazine.

At the end of the night with the dog next to me watching Parks and Rec I found it was much smoother to not even look at the pistol when reloading, and when I looked it was typically a slow, painfully botched reload. Hand positioning and the index finger seemed to play a big part of this for me.


Does anybody know if the magazines included with Beretta’s 92A1 blue gun will work in a real gun, or real mag in the blue gun? Link - http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/beretta ... s-/e00554/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; My thought is having the weight of a real mag without the ammunition for this could be helpful.

My understanding is the 92A1 has a beveled mag well, which my 92G barely has - and I’m using 15 round surplus mags with a boxed front part vs. the 18 round models that have a full taper at the top (much easier to reload quickly). Being able to practice on a gun sans magwell will just make it that much easier.

20JUL16
No practicing, helped to replace a cylinder head on a 5.7 hemi truck, install headers, and cat back. I thought my old supercharged mustang was loud - this thing woke the dead to file noise complaints.

21JUL16
Did 5 minutes of press-out work from the low ready. Decided to order a 18 round magazine or two when they come on sale to compare the ease of reloads. Will order an extended mag release and range holster for the Ruger MK1 next week, and some magazines for it the first week of August.


PT-
Had to cut my back/bicep one short due to time constraints. Tried to make up for it by lifting dumbells at the top of every hour at work. Didn’t get in any cardio this week, will make sure it happens next week. Diet went to crap for being out of town on 2 days, but only went from 180 to 183, body fat is still 12%.

18JUL16
-Pullups 10(4 strict, 6 aided w/ 30lbs), 10(2 strict, 8 aided by 40lbs), 10 (aided by 40), 10 (aided by 40)
-Lying Tbar Row 50x12, 60x12, Drop 65x10/55x5/30x10
-Close-grip lat pulldown 110x12, 120x12, Drop 120x11, 100x10, 80x12
-1 Arm dumbell row 55x12, 65x12, 70,10
-Straight arm pulldown 60x15, 70x15, 80x11, 75x11, 60x13
-EZ bar curl (strict) 25x15, 30x12 (helpers) 35x6, 40x6
-Incline dumbell curls 20x6

20JUL16 (need to figure out front squats)
-Stiff leg deadlift 160x10, 210x9, 210x8, 180x9
-Seated leg curl 130x12, 140x12, 150x12, 160x10, 140x12, 130x12, 110x15
-Front barbell squat 50x10, 70x16, 80x10, 90x6
-Leg press 250x12 270x10 290x8
-Superset leg extentions/scissor jump 160x12/12 170x12/12 180x12/10

12JUL16
-Dumbell shoulder press 35x14, 40x14, 45x9, 35x5, 25x7
-Side lateral raise 20x12, 15x5, (drop) 20x8, 15x8, 10x12
-Reverse machine flies 95x12, 100x15, 105x11 110x14, 115x11
-Superset front barbell raise/barbell row 25x14/25x14 30x14/30x10 30x12/20x10
-Barbell Shurgs 90x12, 180x11, 180x12, 200x12, 250x10
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You can't truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.
-Important distinction
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