NE Ohio USPSA Shoot (Crooked Creek)

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DaveT
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NE Ohio USPSA Shoot (Crooked Creek)

Post by DaveT »

I went on Sunday to the Crooked Creek Conservation Club for their monthly USPSA shoot (and my first-ever competitive shoot).
It was a longish drive, but as far as I've been able to find, they're the closest site hosting these kinds of shoots - the other ones I'm seeing are listed as in PA and WVa.

So, as I said, a long drive - and I'd underestimated how long it would take, so I missed the startup and getting the groups organized, etc. If it's your first time (as it was mine), they have you watch a string of fire through the entire course so you can get a good handle on how it's run before you dive in - which is a good idea. I shadowed one of the two groups running through the stages.

The physical setup at Crooked Creek is pretty good. They have two large rectangular bermed shooting bays, and each one had a group of shooters in it, with two stages set up side by side in each bay.

I've seen the pictures and even video of guys shooting IPSC, etc., but it doesn't look like much when you just look at the pictures on the Web. The thing that's very cool is that, when you walk the stage, they've found some tricky angles with the shoot/no-shoot targets (you shoot the cardboard colored targets, don't shoot the white ones). They'll set them up so the targets are between or behind the no-shoot targets, etc. You have to put two rounds into each silhouette (they have different scoring rings on them) and they had some steel pepper poppers mixed in.

Sometimes you can only engage certain targets from certain positions, even if you can see them. Also, they'll set up barriers or a line of targets so they obstruct the ones behind, so you can't sit in one position and shoot them all. Instead, you have to decide where you're going to engage the targets while moving from point A to point B - a little thinking on your feet. So, your score comes from a mix of the time it takes you to complete the stage, with the score from the total of your hits on the shoot/no-shoot targets, and penalties for hitting the no-shoot targets (I don't quite get the whole formula used).

I've read on the USPSA site that the entire organization is a volunteer effort. But unlike some other volunteer outings, it was really run well and I thought things moved very smoothly. The range officers were also participants in the shoot - and everyone pitches in to keep the stages running smoothly and get everyone through the stage quickly.

Once a stage is fired and the range is called safe by the range officer, a group of the shooters start downrange to reset the steels, the range officer and usually the shooter walk the targets as the range officer scores the hits, with the scorekeeper trailing him. Behind them are some more volunteers taping up the targets so it's ready for the next shooter, so in about 2-3 minutes, the next shooter's at the start line and ready to go.

It was a good group overall...a real mix of abilities and gear. The nice thing is that everyone shoots the strings back to back, no matter what class you're shooting in, and where you are in shooting experience, but you're only scored against people who are in your class and experience level - so if you're showing up for the first time shooting an out-of-the-box gun, you're not going to be hopelessly outclassed by guys with high-dollar setups and years of experience.

Some guys with huge racing gun setups shooting in the open class had extended magazines with 29 rounds and shoot the whole stage without a mag change (but they'd still have three more huge mags on the belt).
A lot of guys in my group were there with pretty standard Glocks, even compacts - some fairly standard 1911s, etc. Basically, a strong-side belt holster and some mag holders will get you through a stage.

I have a basic Springfield Armory XD-9 with a 4-inch barrel and Heinie night sights, a Bladetech holster, 4 mags and one double-mag belt holster, and I got through all of the stages fine, and mostly didn't need a third mag change (however, you're limited to 10 rounds in a magazine, just to keep things more even and so you'll need to mag change during the round). You can start with 10+1, but the rest of the mags are limited to 10 rounds.

I watched a full course of fire (all four stages), then they let me sign up to try the second one. I was a bit nervous, but not too much. I got solid hits on the first stage, then on the second one I figured I'd try to go faster - so I moved well, but then as I was shooting I was just banging away, and focusing on the silhouettes instead of my sights. I thought I was doing great, until they scored me. I totally missed 1 or 2 silhouettes, then got a couple single hits, etc. They say it, and it's true - you can't miss fast enough to win. That was a good lesson for me (that I'm sure I'll have to relearn many more times) - keep eyes on the front sight, and get that sight picture before squeezing off the round.

The range officers were really accommodating and helpful to this first-time shooter. After completing the first two stages, I thanked them and said I had to go (family commitment), and one of the range officers took me over to the other bay and they let me work right into it and get my final two stages done back to back. In fact, they were even more accomodating than that. The group I'd been with would run through one stage at a time for the whole group - the group they handed me off to was running through both stages back to back, and I didn't have enough magazines to run through without reloading. A couple guys from the group loaded up my magazines I tossed down on the first stage so I could get right into the next stage and get out of there.

So, I had a complete scorecard to hand in (scores aren't posted yet), and had a great time. Just wish it was a little closer to home (I was late on the return). For the earliest course of fire, there were about 10 or 12 people in each group...by the time they were ready for a second course of fire, the groups had grown to about 15 or 18 each (maybe more? I didn't actually count), and more people were still arriving as I left. So that slowed down the course of fire a bit, although they were still scoring and resetting very quickly between shooters.

On the USPSA web site, they make the analogy of their sport being like golf, and I can definitely see the comparisons. There are superstars, but the majority of the group are people in various flavors of weekend players - not top competitors, but there for fun. And it is fun - if you've never been, I'd say it's definitely worth a try. Just don't try to outplay Tiger Woods on your first day. Slow and smooth is the way to start.

I'm definitely going to try to get some friends to go with me to the next one. But even going by myself, it was good - people were pretty relaxed about it and definitely willing to help out a newcomer. The sport had a fair range of people show up - mostly guys, but there were several women there by the time I left, and there's a senior rating that was well-represented - about a dozen or so men who appeared to be at or near retirement age, and at least one teenager was in the group. If you're new to the sport, first I'd say you should read through the USPSA web site for pointers, gear requirements, etc. http://uspsa.com/

Then take a look at the pistol and gear you have. First, you'll need eye and ear protection and leave everything else in the trunk when you first arrive - you'll be watching before you shoot - and watching is still fun.

It's also instructive, because you'll see people making the mistakes you've made (and hope not to make in front of spectators). One guy was told to "make ready" on the line, and put in the magazine, but when the buzzer went off, click and no bang. He stood there for several seconds before he racked again and began the course of fire. I've made the same mistake while at the range, but seeing it made on the line, I made sure to press check every time.
Another shooter completely forgot to shoot at one of the silhouettes in a string, and ran on to the next portion of the course without even aiming at it. Several people forgot to take advantage of a natural spot for a reload and surprised themselves when the slide locked back (I did that on one of the stages).

I left with a very favorable impression both of USPSA and the Crooked Creek organization. Check them out at http://uspsa.com/

Dave
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Post by mcb »

Wow, well written first time shooter's perspective.

I believe we met briefly at the match. I was wearing the "If at first you don't succeed; RELOAD" T-shirt. I was Glad to see another XD owner out shooting USPSA. We had at least four XD's there that day.

I have to say that Sunday's match was a record attendance for Crooked Creek. Talking to some of the older members the most guns register for any prior matches was 61 guns. We had 72 guns registered for Sundays match. That slowed things down a bit and our squad sizes got a bit larger than we usually have.

Crooked Creek's next match is in only two weeks. Feel free to come out an shoot with us.

Thanks DaveT for the great review and compliments of Crooked Creek.

mcb

Edited: URL fixed- Daniel
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Don't be intimidated

Post by PAJOHNOHIO »

I like the fact that even the seasoned veterans actually very willing to help with those who are not as seasoned. No one is perfect there. The thought is to strive for perfection, but it is very difficult given the clock and the situations presented. You are given some time to reason through the scenarios in your head prior to the starting of the stage, but when the clock starts, it becomes quite challenging.

One of my mistakes in Single Stack came in the way of tunnel vision. I saw my shot hit a pepper popper and assumed it fell. I moved on and completed the course in good time, but had it pointed out to me that a popper was still standing.

With all that is going on, and racing the clock, you still have to check your area and be sure to clear all your targets. Just the same as in actual combat where you must be sure your threat is eliminated.

It is an awesome time. You shoot, learn, shoot, have fun and did I say shoot?

There are a heck of a lot of good folks out at Crooked Creek during these shoots and I have yet to encounter a bad attitude.

Sorry Moms..I'll be there for the next one on Mother's Day.

I met daveT briefly, very nice guy. I have to appologize for not spending more time talking. My mind gets foucussed on the shooting and once I get a bit more comfortable having people watch me shoot, I will become a better conversationalist. Sorry Dave!

One should not be intimidated by these event. There were many "no-shoots" hit during the day. It is a fun event and a great learing experience.

By the way, Crooked Creek's URL is www.practicalpistol.net


Peace!
<i>"You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall."</i> <b>-A Few Good Men-</b>
DaveT
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Post by DaveT »

Hi mcb and John - thanks for weighing in.

It was nice to meet two people I'd "met" online before, by reading stuff they'd posted. Actually, that helped me figure out who they were and go up and say hi.

John had some posts here about TDI, which helped me before I went, and I'd read a lot of mcb's posts on the XD site.

Anyway, I'd just say that it's definitely one thing to look at the course of fire and plan out what you want to do, and quite another to pull it off. Especially when, say, the pepper popper doesn't drop as you sweep through the targets...then you have to go back to it - but in what order? Can really mess with your head as you feel the crunch of time. But, LOTS of fun.

Dave
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Post by Flexmoney »

Nice match report.
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Getting the Hang of It

Post by PAJOHNOHIO »

Shot at USPSA Crooked Creek on July 9th in the Single Stack Division. Took 3rd of 8 shooters. I am finally getting the hang of problem solving and reloading on the move. I finally made it through all four stages without a penalty or no shoot!

Just have to work on the speed thing now!


Awesome time!!!!!!!!


Next one is on August 13th at Crooked Creek.

www.practicalpistol.net
<i>"You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall."</i> <b>-A Few Good Men-</b>
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Re: Getting the Hang of It

Post by TunnelRat »

PAJOHNOHIO wrote:Just have to work on the speed thing now!
Yup, go fast! If you strive for speed, your accuracy can catch up. If you strive for accuracy, you may get all "A"-hits and still lose (don't ask me how I know... :?).

If you have a hard time finding IPSC shooting, look for IDPA, too. It is similar, though a bit more sane and a lot less gamey (you won't find any 29-round magazines there). Mainly it gives you a chance to shoot. There was a time a few years ago when I was able to shoot competitively four or five times a month (though it took a bit of driving...).
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
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Re: Getting the Hang of It

Post by mcb »

TunnelRat wrote:
PAJOHNOHIO wrote:Just have to work on the speed thing now!
Yup, go fast! If you strive for speed, your accuracy can catch up. If you strive for accuracy, you may get all "A"-hits and still lose (don't ask me how I know... :?).
Speed is important but its easier to first learn to shoot accurately and then learn to shoot fast. If you focus on speed first its harder to learn proper shooting technique. Ultimately you need to be both fast and accurate.
If you have a hard time finding IPSC shooting, look for IDPA, too. It is similar, though a bit more sane and a lot less gamey (you won't find any 29-round magazines there). Mainly it gives you a chance to shoot. There was a time a few years ago when I was able to shoot competitively four or five times a month (though it took a bit of driving...).
IPSC is gamey but I would not call IDPA more sane as long as you have to execute reloads with retention and have to abide by the list of "legal" holsters. Both are games, with practical lessons to be learned.

mcb
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Re: Getting the Hang of It

Post by TunnelRat »

mcb wrote:Speed is important but its easier to first learn to shoot accurately and then learn to shoot fast. If you focus on speed first its harder to learn proper shooting technique. Ultimately you need to be both fast and accurate.
Point taken -- perhaps I didn't explain my thoughts adequately. My point was not to shoot so quickly that you miss, but that it is often enough to fire once your front sight is on the target. A "B" hit (or even a "C" hit) done quickly, is much better than an "A" hit that takes too long. This is especially true when you consider the DVC triad: Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (Accuracy, Power, and Speed).

I cannot, of course, speak for everyone, but when I was first learning to handle firearms the emphasis was altogether on accuracy, while time was not an issue. Before we even started a course of fire at Culver Military Academy, we had to fire a "dime group" -- five shots (.22 caliber) that you could cover with a dime. Time was never considered. The emphasis was on proper position, grip, sling, breathing, sight picture, trigger squeeze, etc. Even U.S. Army rifle training emphasized accuracy over speed, always giving us more time than necessary to engage our targets on the rifle range.

One ragged hole is certainly a worthy goal and bull’s-eye work is an appropriate part of any practice regimen. If you can shoot 2” groups at 50 yds, you should be pleased. Combat accuracy, on the other hand, amounts to two hits on an 8” paper plate at any distance (I'm assuming that an average paper plate would cover the "boiler room" -- the heart/lung area -- of nearly anything we would ever need to shoot).

I'll grant that accuracy and proper form are necessary, but when you are competing against live targets, the amount of time you spend looking through your sights is equal to the amount of time your "target" has to look back at you. If your "target" gets a "B" hit (or even a "C" hit) on you before you get a chance to fire your "A" hit at him, he wins. Although accuracy is absolutely necessary, accuracy without commensurate speed can get you killed in a firefight.

Of course, you are correct: you can't miss fast enough to win -- only hits count. However, once you are able to get hits (even "D" hits) on a the man-sized IPSC target with some degree of regularity, it is time to pick up your speed.

[I am speaking as an "A" hit kind of guy. That was how I was taught. It darn near cost me my life on a couple of occasions. Eventually I learned that any hit at all on a live target gives you an opportunity to take another shot, at perhaps more leisure. In combat that means you try to put your man down first, then finish him. In friendly IPSC target competition, it means that a fast "B" or "C" hit gives a better score than a slow "A" hit.]
If you have a hard time finding IPSC shooting, look for IDPA, too. It is similar, though a bit more sane and a lot less gamey (you won't find any 29-round magazines there). Mainly it gives you a chance to shoot. There was a time a few years ago when I was able to shoot competitively four or five times a month (though it took a bit of driving...).
mcb wrote:IPSC is gamey but I would not call IDPA more sane as long as you have to execute reloads with retention and have to abide by the list of "legal" holsters. Both are games, with practical lessons to be learned.
Indeed, IDPA has a plethora of rules that I find unnecessary and occasionally unreasonable. It seems that they have made hard and fast rules about some things that, perhaps, should be left to the shooter to decide.

The reload with retention is surely one of those (I can think of several others...). In a military situation you may need to retain your magazine because in a sustained firefight you can be resupplied and may want use it again. In any sort of civilian situation, you are not going to be resupplied and perhaps that empty magazine should be dropped in the interest of speed.

The issue with holsters and such is a response to the "gamers" who have changed IPSC from a firearms laboratory into an equipment game. I can understand and appreciate where the IDPA gods are coming from, though I don't always agree with their dictates.

Frankly, I just pays my money and shoots the course, using my regular carry gear. If it is not "legitimate", then I shoot the course without having my scores count against the other competitors. For me, this sort of shooting is for training and not for score.
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
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Post by lencamper »

Sounds like you had a good time. If you are ever in the NW Ohio area you are welcome at Fulton Co. Conservation Club. We shoot the second and third weekends of each month IPSC 2nd. and IDPA 3rd. If you can't decide which sport you like best, do what I do, shoot both. Always remember, Shoot accurate, Shoot fast, But most importantly shoot SAFE.
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PAJOHNOHIO
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Post by PAJOHNOHIO »

here is the info on the next shoot out at Crooked Creek!:

Our next match is...
Sunday, August 13, 2006
Outdoors at Crooked Creek www.practicalpistol.net
Setup Saturday, August 12th @ 2:00 PM
be there @ 1:30 to load up
Signup Sunday, August 13th from
8:00 AM to 1:00 PM
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Post by PAJOHNOHIO »

Shot USPSA this past Sunday, August 13th. Another perfect weather day. I stayed in the single stack division and did better again this month. There were only 7 shooters in the Single Stack division and I took 2nd. The only thing keeping me out of first was I nicked a no shoot on the qualifier stage. I had a great time at just over 4 seconds. Oh well...I swore I was going for speed this time out and stuck to it.

They had some great stages this month as well. One was called..."Answer the door." When you opened a screen door, it activated a drop turner that presented itself to you twice for one second each time it faced you. Then you had to move through the rest of the stage.

They also had a stage called "Soft Cover." near the back of the stage they had four IPSC targets that were obscured from the neck down with black plastic covering. You had to mentally draw your site picture by what you knew was the target under the sheeting. Awesome stage!

The practice and competition is making me a better defensive and tactical shooter. My reloads are getting much faster and I am having almost no operator errors which improves my time/hit factor and scoring.

Those of you who carry for defensive purposes, think about this competition. It pushes you. when you are under the timer, the stress hits and really challenges you to solve your problem!


Totally awesome event!
<i>"You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall."</i> <b>-A Few Good Men-</b>
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Re: Getting the Hang of It

Post by Sevesteen »

TunnelRat wrote: The reload with retention is surely one of those (I can think of several others...). In a military situation you may need to retain your magazine because in a sustained firefight you can be resupplied and may want use it again. In any sort of civilian situation, you are not going to be resupplied and perhaps that empty magazine should be dropped in the interest of speed.
I think I understand the reasoning for this, but don't particularly like it. You fight like you train, and in a real fight, an empty $30 magazine is worthless. I don't want to be found shot with a magazine carefully retained. Like the Chief told us in the Mechanicsburg class, back in police revolver days, training was to pocket your empty brass when reloading, to keep the range clean. They found dead cops with empty guns and a pocketfull of brass, so changed training.

I think my club uses IPSC rules but is not affiliated. When I've seen them, haven't seen many extreme race guns--1911's with extended mags and beveled mag wells, but no optics and fairly standard holsters. I'm thinking of joining--Not only will the matches be beneficial, but the cold range rules are relaxed for "known Cowboy or IPSC shooters"--I'll be able to practice from the holster even when it isn't an IPSC match.

The issue with holsters and such is a response to the "gamers" who have changed IPSC from a firearms laboratory into an equipment game. I can understand and appreciate where the IDPA gods are coming from, though I don't always agree with their dictates.
Hard choices, and no way to please everyone. From what I've read of the rules, I think they've done a decent job.
Frankly, I just pays my money and shoots the course, using my regular carry gear. If it is not "legitimate", then I shoot the course without having my scores count against the other competitors. For me, this sort of shooting is for training and not for score.
That's how I plan to handle it. I'll probably even keep my cover garment. Plus it will give me an excuse when I'm slow...
I'm far more interested in an advantage over attackers if god forbid I ever need it than I am in winning matches.
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Post by ScottyPotty »

I came out last weekend for my second shoot.......I brought my brother In-law and we both had a blast. :D

I don't know how I did......cant wait to see the results.

it seems like when you start messing up you just keep on doing it....I really messed up on stage 2, and didn't even shoot at the closest target on the left side.......just totally blanked out...never saw it :oops:

good times and I can wait until the next one.

oh yeah.....I also got to meet MCB... 8)
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Post by PAJOHNOHIO »

ScottyPotty wrote:I came out last weekend for my second shoot.......I brought my brother In-law and we both had a blast. :D

I don't know how I did......cant wait to see the results.

it seems like when you start messing up you just keep on doing it....I really messed up on stage 2, and didn't even shoot at the closest target on the left side.......just totally blanked out...never saw it :oops:

good times and I can wait until the next one.

oh yeah.....I also got to meet MCB... 8)
Then I think you were in my squad. I remember the target you missed. I gotta get a Oio for Concealed Carry Shirt to wear there so I can meet those who show up to shoot USPSA.

By the way, you can see the prelim results at www.uspsa.org

Local Match Result
August 13, 2006 CROOKED CREEK PISTOL LEAGUE
Final results for Production

Place Name USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match %
1 Raymond K. A53503 C Production Minor No No 408.0644 100.00%
2 Tim W. A57000 U Production Minor No No 404.2007 99.05%
3 Kevin A. S. A55852 U Production Minor No No 376.9837 92.38%
4 Bruce W. A56999 U Production Minor No No 303.7116 74.43%
5 Stuart S. A57001 U Production Minor No No 301.8077 73.96%
6 Robert M. U Production Minor No No 301.0413 73.77%
7 Tim M. A56601 U Production Minor No No 289.2342 70.88%
8 Nathan S. A55853 U Production Minor No No Junior 259.5133 63.60%
9 Scott E. U Production Minor No No 245.5053 60.16%
10 Richard C. U Production Minor No No 240.0952 58.84%
11 Robert M. U Production Minor No No 236.2860 57.90%
12 Paul B. U Production Minor No No 222.1720 54.45%
13 John M. A29415 C Production Minor No No Super Senior 190.7096 46.74%
14 Larry R. B. U Production Minor No No 166.2645 40.74%


Local Match Result
August 13, 2006 CROOKED CREEK PISTOL LEAGUE
Final results for Single_Stack

Place Name USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match %
1 Richard E. L1761 C Single Stack Major No No Senior 382.9497 100.00%
2 John P. G. A52917 U Single Stack Major No No 353.9143 92.42%
3 Caleb S. A55854 U Single Stack Minor No No Junior 347.9795 90.87%
4 Joe A. A52176 D Single Stack Major No No Senior 295.9636 77.29%
5 Mike B. U Single Stack Major No No 257.9193 67.35%
6 Lynn H. U Single Stack Major Yes No 204.9921 53.53%
7 Frank V. U Single Stack Major No No 122.2575 31.93%
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