Inadequate home range design - what would you do?

[phillip]

I live in the country. I have 500 acres to shoot on so have a few spots set up with 30-50' 'cliff' hill right behind to shoot against. Then 3-4000 feet of my corn field beyond before any homes.

But city folks keep moving out here and buying 1&2 acre lots around us. Some of these folks believe that since they now live in the country they can shoot on their property.

One adjacent neighbor set up a handgun 'shooting range' that consisted of a 15" dia x 5" long log set at his back property line (MY property line) on his 1 acre lot. He shoots into this 15" a. No backstop; wait, my property is his backstop. Unfortunately, I move around my property quite a lot, even 20' from his property line.

So last time he started shooting 50 rounds or so of 9mm in his Kaltec, I called the local cops. They came and told ME that unless I have proof he is missing that BIG target (no backstop), then shut up and leave him alone! They threatened to arrest ME for complaining! Barney Fife would have been more knowledgeable!

Now there is another new city move in guy down the road that decided that since there is a 5 acre corn field owned by someone else adjacent to his property he can tip an old table up on its side and shoot his rifles at it from across his 2 acre lawn. There are a zillion houses directly behind him. He is on craigs list asking for free dirt for 'his backstop.' But again, his table target is set at his property line, so he shoots into the neighbors 2,3,4 streets beyond.

Am I paranoid? If not, is there a way to try to teach these dumb local cops that this is not safe? Should I tell those neighbors behind this jerk to be careful since THEY are his shooting range? Or just shut up?

[JediSkipdogg]

I would deal with the homeowners directly. The cops can't do anything, there's no law they are breaking until they hit you. Complaining to the cops will then only make a state law that says you can't shoot on your property without a backstop the size of Mt. Rushmore. Offer to help build their backstop with them. That's about all you can do.

[JustaShooter]

I would deal with the homeowners directly. The cops can't do anything, there's no law they are breaking until they hit you. Complaining to the cops will then only make a state law that says you can't shoot on your property without a backstop the size of Mt. Rushmore. Offer to help build their backstop with them. That's about all you can do.

I second this - and another thing you can to to help educate them is to print a Google Maps view of the properties showing their shooting positions and targets, and show what is within range beyond them - to quote a well-known song from the 60's, "with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one"

[BriKuz]

on the other hand... if someone shot onto my property, in my direction.. I MIGHT think they were firing at me... and reply as I felt appropriate... property rights means the AIR on your property, too

[DontTreadOnMe]

I would deal with the homeowners directly. The cops can't do anything, there's no law they are breaking until they hit you.

I disagree, the cops just need to be shown that his bullets are leaving his own yard and coming into yours. Go through your yard with a metal detector and find some of his bullets. Leave them where you find them, take pics and call the cops back out. If you want to be really nice show them to him first and offer to help him build an appropriate backstop.

If you bring the police out and they still won't do anything, then it's time to let the chief, mayor, town council (or whatever it is where you live) know that you've provided evidence to the police that your neighbor is firing into your property putting your life at risk and refuse to take action.

[JediSkipdogg]

I would deal with the homeowners directly. The cops can't do anything, there's no law they are breaking until they hit you.

I disagree, the cops just need to be shown that his bullets are leaving his own yard and coming into yours. Go through your yard with a metal detector and find some of his bullets. Leave them where you find them, take pics and call the cops back out. If you want to be really nice show them to him first and offer to help him build an appropriate backstop.

If you bring the police out and they still won't do anything, then it's time to let the chief, mayor, town council (or whatever it is where you live) know that you've provided evidence to the police that your neighbor is firing into your property putting your life at risk and refuse to take action.

What law are they breaking? Find one. You can complain all you want to the cops, the chief, the mayor, the town council, the pope, but if there is no law, the police can't do anything. And complaining will only create a law that may harm all. We are dealing with this exact thing and noise coming from the Point Blank shooting range. Be prepared in the next few months to see some law stating impossible noise levels for indoor shooting ranges, and it will be retroactive if proposed. Just throwing that out there as what happens when nothing can be done.

Littering at it's best. But I'm not even sure if there is a state littering law in Ohio.

[DontTreadOnMe]

What law are they breaking? Find one. You can complain all you want to the cops, the chief, the mayor, the town council, the pope, but if there is no law, the police can't do anything.

Aside from the obvious of heading off a Reckless or Negligent Homicide which is more than sufficient to call the police, there's:

2903.21 Aggravated menacing.
(A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family.

Note that the knowingly isn't in the causing of harm, but in causing someone else to believe your actions will cause them serious harm.

2917.11 Disorderly conduct.
(A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:
(5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.

While target practice on your own property may be a lawful and reasonable act, firing bullets into someone else's property is not.

And complaining will only create a law that may harm all. We are dealing with this exact thing and noise coming from the Point Blank shooting range

If your shooting range is (as a regular/recurring issue) sending bullets into neighbors' property, it should be shut down. Let's be honest here, that causes a high risk of accidental death from a situation that you (or your range) knows exists. Recklessly firing guns into someone else's property is not responsible gun ownership and isn't something that responsible gun owners condone. Continuing to do so after you're aware of the problem is reckless and should be illegal. If it isn't and complaints about the behavior cause a new law to be written, good. If someone wants to avoid that, they shouldn't fire guns into someone else's property.

[Jake]

I may have mis-read the OP but have bullets landed beyond any of the shooter's yard's yet?

[cashman966]

Sounds like they are in violation of rules propagated under 1533.84 Rules for establishing standards for shooting ranges, and listed in the OAC under 1501:31-29-03 Shooting ranges. Specifically section (D)

(D) Private and public shooting ranges should substantially comply with safety guidelines generally recognized and accepted by the national rifle association (NRA). Suggested safety guidelines are described or explained in great detail in "The NRA Range Source Book, Section I, Chapter 2, (1999 Edition)."

A violation is a 4th degree misdemeanor.

[cashman966]

I may have mis-read the OP but have bullets landed beyond any of the shooter's yard's yet?

I believe that was what was meant by this statement

One adjacent neighbor set up a handgun 'shooting range' that consisted of a 15" dia x 5" long log set at his back property line (MY property line) on his 1 acre lot. He shoots into this 15" a. No backstop; wait, my property is his backstop. Unfortunately, I move around my property quite a lot, even 20' from his property line.

Sounds like the log is on the property line, unless the guy never misses I would guess one or two rounds are crossing the property line.

[JediSkipdogg]

2903.21 Aggravated menacing.
(A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family.

Note that the knowingly isn't in the causing of harm, but in causing someone else to believe your actions will cause them serious harm.

Well, operating any shooting range can meet those requirements. Where does it say the bullet has to go in the other yard to even meet that requirement? If you operate a shooting range outdoor without a backstop that can stop a bullet fired at a 45 degree angle I think it's unsafe unless you are an expert shooter.

2917.11 Disorderly conduct.
(A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:
(5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.

While target practice on your own property may be a lawful and reasonable act, firing bullets into someone else's property is not.

What's the unlawful or unreasonable purpose? Shooting in one's back yard is lawful. Shooting at a target is not unreasonable.

And complaining will only create a law that may harm all. We are dealing with this exact thing and noise coming from the Point Blank shooting range

If your shooting range is (as a regular/recurring issue) sending bullets into neighbors' property, it should be shut down. Let's be honest here, that causes a high risk of accidental death from a situation that you (or your range) knows exists. Recklessly firing guns into someone else's property is not responsible gun ownership and isn't something that responsible gun owners condone. Continuing to do so after you're aware of the problem is reckless and should be illegal. If it isn't and complaints about the behavior cause a new law to be written, good. If someone wants to avoid that, they shouldn't fire guns into someone else's property.

I agree it's unsafe, but if we go with causing alarm, then if a neighbor moves in next to you and hears you shooting, they can say that puts fear in themselves. You open a small door and it will open a large door.

Sounds like they are in violation of rules propagated under 1533.84 Rules for establishing standards for shooting ranges, and listed in the OAC under 1501:31-29-03 Shooting ranges. Specifically section (D)

(D) Private and public shooting ranges should substantially comply with safety guidelines generally recognized and accepted by the national rifle association (NRA). Suggested safety guidelines are described or explained in great detail in "The NRA Range Source Book, Section I, Chapter 2, (1999 Edition)."

A violation is a 4th degree misdemeanor.

I'd be interested to see what that book has to say. My friend has a copy, I just haven't read any yet.

[Werz]

Sounds like they are in violation of rules propagated under 1533.84 Rules for establishing standards for shooting ranges, and listed in the OAC under 1501:31-29-03 Shooting ranges. Specifically section (D)

(D) Private and public shooting ranges should substantially comply with safety guidelines generally recognized and accepted by the national rifle association (NRA). Suggested safety guidelines are described or explained in great detail in "The NRA Range Source Book, Section I, Chapter 2, (1999 Edition)."

A violation is a 4th degree misdemeanor.

In the absence of a "no person shall" prohibition, I doubt that statute could be prosecuted as a crime, regardless of the catch-all provision in R.C. 1533.99(F). However, it does set forth standards, which could eventually lead to civil and criminal actions. I think the real issue is who the OP should call: the critter cops, not the county mounties.

[phillip]

by Jake » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:25 pm

I may have mis-read the OP but have bullets landed beyond any of the shooter's yard's yet?

Thanks everyone for your comments; it sure expands my thinking & options!

Jake, my adjacent neighbor's 15" x5" log was chewed up all along its edge from bullets that just missed. With 9mm bullets potentially travelling a mile I have not attempted to find any of his misses.

The table-at-property-line for back stop rifleman has corn in the field direclty next to him: the corn is GONE (shattered into sawdust) in about a 15' wide by 20-30ft deep area behind his table; think that is plenty proof his bullets are going off his property. I thought bullets into someone elses property without permission is tresspassing too.

what prompted this was a sad report on another forum how a lady 1 mile away from similar shooters died:

Know your backstop! Or kill someone
Here in ferndale Washington we just had someone get killed by someone shooting down by the river who didn't have or use a proper back stop. A lady was killed a mile away at a Father's Day BBQ. A good warning for the rest of us.

[jabeatty]

Jake, my adjacent neighbor's 15" x5" log was chewed up all along its edge from bullets that just missed.

The next time he's out shooting, wait till he's done, then setup a similar hunk of wood a foot inside your property line and explain that you're going to use it for your backstop.

Ask him if he minds if you shoot at the same time he's shooting.

[jose45]

I'd at least try to work something out with the guy before involving LE.Most gun folks are pretty good people.Jedi mentioned offering to help build a better backstop.You could always bring in a backhoe and make him one whether he wants it or not.

Express your concerns to him personally.You should definitely have the right to move about your property freely without fear of being struck by a stray bullet.