CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

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TSiWRX
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by TSiWRX »

^ That's part of the reason why! :D
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by CMcLeish »

Any education is worth what the student puts into it. A student could spend a fortune on a world-class teacher and pay no attention to it. Or a student could put forth their own effort outside of class and become very proficient. The big thing that I think about from the class I took is student/instructor ratio. I was fortunate to have 2 good instructors with a total of about a dozen students.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Javelin Man »

My parents went through the class at Fin Feather and Fur, they had to put two full magazines through a Ruger Mark II. That was the extent of their training but Mom bought a .357 that day and they went home and practiced with their guns. Dad was on the OSU Pistol Team back in the 50's and he taught us boys to shoot so he kinda knew how to handle a gun. Mom needed to know a little more and practice a lot more so Dad was more than willing to practice with her.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by muxtech »

I took the NRA personal protection in the home course at a range in Texas sixteen years before my CHL class in Ohio. The range requirements were the basic stuff people should know how to do anyway. I don't think a CHL class should necessarily be the place for total beginners. People should care enough to learn to shoot first and have a handgun they are familiar and competent with. There may be a few cases where time is a factor, but most people can afford to take some time to learn to shoot, so that they are ready to be certified. I'm not advocating any change in requirements, just thoughtful dedication to the responsibility of going armed.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JustaShooter »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:The ORC doesn't require that each student have 2 hrs of live-fire:

(b) At least two hours of training that consists of range time and live-fire training.
Not sure what you are fully saying. No, you don't have to stand there shooting for 2 hours.
I read the OP as having an issue with classes where students spend less than 2 hours actually firing, suggesting that such classes don't meet ORC requirements.
If you wanted, you could continue to shoot for the remaining 30 minutes of the slot (which I did) but even then, max was less than an hour, and total of 100 rounds.... for many in my class what we received was woefully inadequate, certainly it was inadequate from the standpoint of satisfying the requirements of the law.
Perhaps I misread him. Either way, I was pointing out that the 2 hour requirement isn't 2 hrs of shooting.
What I didn't say and perhaps should have so that it would have been more clear, is that the half of the class that wasn't on the range spent that time inside the classroom drinking coffee, chatting, whatever, without any instructor or pretense of training and certainly not observing those that were on the range at the time. And if you "qualified" in 50 rounds, you got an additional half hour of idle time. Now, it was cold - really cold - outside on the range so on the one hand I understand it, and maybe the class normally isn't like that.

I didn't expect 2 solid hours of shooting drills, but I did expect more than what I saw - and as I said in talking with others who have their CHL and took training from any number of instructors, my experience wasn't unusual. But by the same token, as I read other responses and ask questions and begin to better understand what others experienced and what other trainers do and what constitutes range time I see that maybe my expectations were a bit off as well.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by JustaShooter »

muxtech wrote:I don't think a CHL class should necessarily be the place for total beginners. People should care enough to learn to shoot first and have a handgun they are familiar and competent with. There may be a few cases where time is a factor, but most people can afford to take some time to learn to shoot, so that they are ready to be certified. I'm not advocating any change in requirements, just thoughtful dedication to the responsibility of going armed.
I couldn't agree more. I was truly concerned about some of the folks that were receiving their certificates, and I do hope they go on to get more training and experience with their firearms. I would have felt a lot more comfortable if they had done so before the CHL class, however, so as you put it "they are ready to be certified".
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by suedenflames68 »

Ok Im gonna bring this one back from a couple months...

It brings up real concerns i have as to the requirments being met of a class. I have not taken mine yet and I have seen a few threads about people saying that their class was not sufficient to meet the requirements. Im truely not trying to be overly sarcastic with the following questions.

The ORC states 2 hrs of range time and 10 class time. Untill reading this I assumed that the 2hrs range time is active shooting for the duration of that..... thats what i do in the shooting range, i shoot. Is the rest of the time supposed to be spent on proper handling of the firearrm and such?

If its exceptable to not be shooting during range time whats exceptable in the class room? Whats the classroom experience like? I figured that would be where they would go into basic safety info and things as well as the laws. Can they show Rambo movies, as there is a lot of guns in those?
ok, maybe a little sarcastic there, but my point is, untill i read this thread, i would not have thought that any worse than only shoooting for a half hour instead of 2 full hours.

Just doesnt make sense to me to require 2 hrs in range if your not shooting that amount of time.... what can they teach in the range that they cant teach in the class room? other than maybe how to load the gun i guess, but its scary to think that people at these classes wouldnt already know at least that.

Maybe I'm just looking at it weird because ive already been shooting for sometime and the things they would teach arent so obvious to me as they seem like given, basic knowlege everyone would already know. I imagine Sevens experiences at the class and mine may end up to be similar, and perhaps that maybe the kind of class i should look for as well.

I was planning on going to one of the more expensive classes at a local range as they state its taught by a lawyer and that was really my main concern in all this, but i feel fairly well edjucated from reading on this site. Sometimes things just stick in my head better when i hear them spoken aloud and can ask questions aswell.

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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by Jake »

The classes are supposed to meet the "basics".
We often get beginners who have not handled or shot a gun prior to the class.

Additional training is what I recommend to all my students.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

suedenflames68 wrote:...Untill reading this I assumed that the 2hrs range time is active shooting for the duration of that..... thats what i do in the shooting range, i shoot.
The 2-hour range portion must INCLUDE live-fire and a proficiency test on said live-fire.
suedenflames68 wrote:...other than maybe how to load the gun i guess, but its scary to think that people at these classes wouldnt already know at least that.
Ha! Prepare to be terrified!

suedenflames68 wrote:I was planning on going to one of the more expensive classes at a local range as they state its taught by a lawyer and that was really my main concern in all this...
If the 'local range' you mentioned is the one in Lancaster, the class is okay, but they are a bit loose with the hours. For those who are already shooters, they opened the exit door an hour early. I stayed for the full two hours and rented a couple guns I had not shot before.

My original opinion of the "training" requirement has been significantly modified by my exposure to people who have ZERO experience with ANY KIND of firearm.

If I laid out five .38 Special cartridges, and laid down a 5-shot .38 Special revolver with the cylinder open, and simply told you to "load the gun", that's what you would do, right?

Now imagine dealing with the person who says, "How do I do that?"

My daughter could load and work a single-action revolver when she was 9, but not until I taught her how.

There are plenty of adults who still need to be taught how.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by suedenflames68 »

It is indeed Ohio valley in lancaster that I was speaking of.

I very well my be terrified :shock: . Ive left the range before because of people making me nervous. To the employees credit though they came in once when i was there and told some idiot posing with his (i can only assume still loaded) ak for a photo opp for his girlfriend to basically stop being an idiot. So they are active in keeping the place safe. I have no doubt that there are instances of people at every shooting range doing stupid things now and then either from inexperience or just not thinking. Im sure i have done dumb things myself aswell.

You are right too, of course, that untill they are taught, they just dont have any idea how to do any of it. More people getting involved is surely a good thing as well. Everyone is a beginner at some point, and has to learn somehow. I guess i just dont see chl training as a basics course for handguns, but apparently that is also a role that it serves.

I figured, especially with the lawyer, it would be a lot of talk of how to react to different scenarios, maybe conversaton of court cases, what to do if your involed in a shooting and such, but seems probably not? Anything more like that for people that have already been shooting for years?

I looked at TDI 1-3 classes and figured even if they didnt have any more legal kinda stuff than anyone else, it would still be fun and help me improve my shooting. They are all booked up for the year already though.

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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by bearkitty »

To the OP - I hear ya! I posted here with similar concerns after reading and hearing about other classes. Mine was nothing like theirs. What I took was the NRA Basic Pistol course. It was just that, very basic pistol instruction. I felt like I learned nothing. About half of the class had never shot a handgun before though. Several folks showed up with brand new guns, still taped up in their original boxes. We spent plenty of time on the range - much more than 2 hours - but I only shot a total of about 40 rounds.

Looking back, I realize that observing the newbies was quite valuable. In any activity, the basics never go out of style. Watching others struggle and learn was both encouraging and terrifying. I gained the confidence I needed to CC every day by watching the others....kind of an "I got this" epiphany. As class wrapped up the instructor divided us into two groups. As he handed my group our certificates, he told us to turn in our applications and carry every day. He told the other group that they were now only 'qualified' to shoot .22's through a paper plate at 7 yards. He said much more, but the point was noted.

Courses are often marketed as "CCW Training" as if taking the course somehow give one all the training and mindset needed to carry. It doesn't. It can't. I do think the 12 hour requirement is sufficient to teach the basics and let each individual decide for themselves. My decision was to pursue defensive handgun classes. I'm sure others decided to leave the handgun in the bedside safe.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

suedenflames68 wrote:...I guess i just dont see chl training as a basics course for handguns, but apparently that is also a role that it serves...
You will be taking the NRA Basic Pistol Course as part of their CHL class.
suedenflames68 wrote:I figured, especially with the lawyer, it would be a lot of talk of how to react to different scenarios, maybe conversaton of court cases, what to do if your involed in a shooting and such, but seems probably not?...
Actually, that's the best part of the class and is the only reason I would recommend it.
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Re: CHL training: Requirements vs Reality

Post by xpd54 »

After being off the Internet for a while I'm catching up on my reading and thought I'd offer my 2 cents.

Here's how I rank the importance of the different parts of my CCW program (not an NRA program):

#1 - Legal and mindset issues
#2 - Safety
#3 - Fundamentals of shooting
#4 - pistol parts knowledge
#5 - methods of carry
#6 - cleaning

I try to get through all 6 topics in every class. Sometimes 5/6 are abbreviated or omitted because I needed to spend more time on 1-4. I usually spend 3-4 hours on the legal/mindset block, 3 hours on the range and the rest of the time on the other topics. Range time usually covers 80-100 rds minimum. Targets are silhouette targets. Two handed shooting, strong hand only, weak hand only, moving backwards (duty to retreat don't ya know), moving backwards while strong hand only are all skills I introduce.

Sometimes the legal section goes in a direction I didn't anticipate and throws off my timing. I had one class where my 30 second discourse on dogs are considered property turned into a 20 minute conversation.

To make sure I get to cover all the info I want and still get to give good one on one assistance, I like to keep my classes small. Usually no more than 8 students 6 is preferred. Any more than that and I like to bring in another instructor.

When I teach the NRA program for a local gun shop (owner decided to stick with NRA program for the insurance he gets through NRA), I teach the NRA Basic Pistol curriculum which changes things up. Of the two, I definitely think the students get more from the non-NRA program.
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