Learning from different schools/instructors.

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Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:45 pm

Taken from the "How about some pics" thread ( viewtopic.php?p=4068446#p4068446 ) ---->

Carmen asked a very insightful question:

carmen fovozzo wrote:Alan....Here is something I have wondered about for quite awhile...
For people that take a lot training from different sources and go to a lot of class's and tactical training and defensive situations, from different instructor's that have their own method's. How do you think you will react to a defensive situation when it arises ? What I mean is there is more then one way to skin a cat,( cat lovers please don't take offense ) .. You have all this training with different reactions for the same situation. How do you know which one is best ? And how can you make a quick decision ?


That's the thing - I don't necessarily know which one is best. I don't want to be locked into just one way of thinking. I want options.

Yet, at the same time, I also understand well that in times of stress, too many options can lead to brain-lock. Analysis Paralysis.

Despite the apparent conflict above, I do not think that having a "first-line response" based on wrote muscle-memory is necessarily exclusive to seeking to broaden one's knowledge and skill-set, and here's a long and drawn-out response :oops: :lol: as to why I think it's not mutually exclusive :arrow:

I'm a biological scientist, and as-such, I understand well the "fight or flight" response. I'm a fan of trainers like Louis Awerbuck, Paul Gomez, Clint Smith, schools like Magpul, and techniques such as point-shooting for this very reason. They take your body's natural reactions and capabilities and incorporate them into the wrote-memory acts that they train you to accomplish. To me, this is gearing for the right response, when I'm in "absolute panic mode."

Yet, at the same time, look at high-stress occupations. I won't say that I know what jet-fighter pilots go through, but I can say that I understand a bit of what surgeons do, and you know what? when people say that stress-inoculation works, that jet-fighter pilots and surgeons are just two very real manifestations of that kind of training, I am forced to believe that there's truth in that argument. If the non-diagnostic malfunction remediation methods are what I will execute under the panic of critical stress, then the opposite would be what might happen if I were somehow able to break myself from that loop - that the stress-inoculation that I've been exposed to (and hopefully will continue to be exposed to) may give me the luxury of being able to tear myself out of those responses - and were able to execute a diagnostic remediation. Would the former work, and work well? Undoubtedly. But for a double-feed malfunction, would the latter method work faster/"better," in my being able to give the gun the right answer the very first time around, rather than having to go through the tap-rack-bang and then the rip-&-strip/rack-rack-rack/insert-and-go of the non-diagnostic? I think so.

For me, it's currently as much about adding tools to the tool-chest, as it is going through these tools and finding out what works better/best for me.

Like I said in another thread, I've never had lead flung towards me in anger. My loved-ones have never been in such danger as what I'm ostensibly carrying a firearm for. I don't know how I will react, under such conditions. Will I revert solely to muscle memory? Will I be able to do more? Will I run away screaming? I don't know. I'm no Chuck Norris, I'm no Jack Bauer. You've met me and shook my hand, Carmen, and I think you could easily tell that I'm no ninja assassin. :oops: :lol:

By going to all these different schools, by learning from different - but all well-qualified - people, I simply hope to expand my tool-chest. From that, I organize it as I would a real tool-chest: the most used items should be the easiest to find. I look to see what techniques best fits my reality, practice it to make sure that it does indeed fit and work as-intended, and make it what I call upon, first. I make those skills what I revert to when my mind melts and I need to rely on my muscles to just do what they're supposed to do.

Early-on, I was groomed in the diagnostic method of malfunction clearance, and so that's what I used for the majority of my classes this past year. After a bit of self-review, I came to the realization that despite how fast and efficient I was at diagnostic malfunction remediation, that it was actually less than totally realistic: that I'd adopted it as my preferred method because it allowed me to not only survive, but excel, in a training atmosphere. I realized that in the real-world, it would likely serve me better to have a first-line response that is as rigorous and "higher-processing"-power-saving as the more wrote non-diagnostic method. So I re-arrange my tool-chest a little.

But that doesn't mean that there may not be a better tool that I could've used, if I just took the time to realize it.

What I don't want is to execute a more demanding maneuver, under critical stress, when I've never even been exposed to it. I feel that I'm far better off having at least been exposed to it, however briefly, in an environment that is safe and under the guidance of a well-trained teacher.

I have no problems with any instructor/school asking me to do things their way. I'm more than happy to try: who knows, it just might work better. :) Furthermore, there's also institutional inertia to fight, and what better way to do so than to experience "new" techniques, right?

And that leads to the last thing, that there's the idea of never being comfortable.

Sure, a lot of our stress in training is and should be self-induced. You should always be trying to do better. The instructors may be asking everyone to just put their hits on the paper, but if you can do a 2-inch grouping in the amount of time allotted, then why not go for the bull's-eye, instead of being satisfied and complacent? It's easy to get comfortable in training.

There's definitely also stress that comes from the unknown. Going to a new range/class and meeting classmates and instructors who don't know you from Jack (or Jane) and feeling those butterflies in your stomach from just being there, I think that's a good thing.

So, that's my take on learning from different instructors, from different schools.

Thanks for a very thought-provoking question, my friend. :) And to my fellow brothers and sisters here, I invite further discussion. :)
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby XDm45 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:12 pm

I would tend to agree with you. While I have personally not taken any classes beyond basic gun handling yet (intend to start in the spring), in my point of view, being that defensive/tactical type shooting (especially under stress) isn't something you can easily practice, training more is going to be the best practice you are going to get. And if you only train under one skill set of school of thought, how do you know there isn't a technique better suited to you and your personal skill set. Of course you can do the shooting leagues, and hone your skills that way, but while the stress of competition will help you learn to use your skills under stress, the stress an instructor barking at you puts on you, may be a little more realistic (all depending on the individual of course). Just my couple of cents, and after i go through a more advanced course or 2, my opinions may change greatly.
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Jake » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:25 pm

So, in a nut shell....?
:P
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:47 pm

Tigress + Monkey + Mantis + Viper + Crane = Kung Fu Panda. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby JediSkipdogg » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:52 pm

TSiWRX wrote:Tigress + Monkey + Mantis + Viper + Crane = Kung Fu Panda. :lol: :lol:


I prefer the Crouching Tiger technique from Karate Kid. Wait, I'll reply to this later for real.
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Tweed Ring » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:56 pm

I was in mandatory training, including range training every year. The training was provided by a number of competent trainers, although each individual put his spin on the various subject matters. When I needed the training,i.e. when the situation became a reality, it was almost as if there was a chorus of trainers speaking into my ears. Additionally, the scenario unfolded like a slide show. Later, when I related this information to the chief trainer, he said, "We fight the way we train."
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Jake » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:01 pm

"We fight the way we train."

Yup.

Find what works for you and work that regimen.
There is where you'll develop muscle memory.
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Gaspode » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:23 pm

Jake wrote:
"We fight the way we train."

Yup.

Find what works for you and work that regimen.
There is where you'll develop muscle memory.


See? And everyone thinks i'm crazy for practicing 'Force Choke'...
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Jake » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:46 pm

i'm crazy for practicing 'Force Choke


Is that something I want to ask about?
:oops:
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Shaolin_dragon » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:50 pm

Jake wrote:
i'm crazy for practicing 'Force Choke


Is that something I want to ask about?
:oops:


I swear a couple of members of parliment, and miss whiplash were involved in that...some time ago if i recall....... :oops: :wink: :lol:
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Tweed Ring wrote:I was in mandatory training, including range training every year. The training was provided by a number of competent trainers, although each individual put his spin on the various subject matters. When I needed the training,i.e. when the situation became a reality, it was almost as if there was a chorus of trainers speaking into my ears. Additionally, the scenario unfolded like a slide show. Later, when I related this information to the chief trainer, he said, "We fight the way we train."


So, that begs the follow-up: was the chorus a good thing? or was it more confusing?
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:56 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:I prefer the Crouching Tiger technique from Karate Kid. Wait, I'll reply to this later for real.


I thought that was "the Crane Kick?"

http://www.wolfgnards.com/index.php/201 ... crane-kick

^ :lol: 8)

OK, in all seriousness, actually, that was a good lead-back to the wisdom of: "we fight the way we train."

It'd been nearly 20 years since I was last on the mats. This past Saturday, I finally got back into it, with Ron Lauinger of LMI. After nearly a year's worth of procrastinating on my part and scheduling mishaps on his side (student cancellations), I finally got out to him for a one day (6-hour) H2H seminar, "Close Quarters Combatives."

A lifetime and a half-a-person (the kind way of saying 80+ pounds :oops: :lol: ) ago, I was a decent martial-artist. Not great, but not bad, either. It was a full-contact style/school, and in matches, it was either take-down or knock-out. It was both fun and spectacular in the ring, but what I found out in just the first hour of Ron's class was that it lacked the necessary ferocity and "finishing touches" that is so necessary out there in the real world. I'm used to the throw being the end of the engagement, for the bell to ring, me to walk away, and the next round to begin - I'm not used to jumping on the guy and pounding him (with my elbow and knees! no fists except for hammer fists!) into a pulp, then backpedaling and putting two in his chest as he's getting up. But a part of me knows that's the ferocity and resolve I will need, if something bad does happen.

So yes, we fight like we train. My "training" was all for sport. Sure, the throws were real and the knockouts real, but the reality of the streets do not mesh with what I'd learned in my "sport." In Ron's class, I saw just how much training scar I had - and still have - to break.
Last edited by TSiWRX on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby Tweed Ring » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:58 pm

It seemed... interactive. When I started to do something wrong or do something right but incorrectly, it was like they were talking to me. I well remember holding the pistol on a guy, then forcing him to the ground to be cuffed. It was a unique experience.
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby TSiWRX » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:10 pm

^ Thank you, for that.

I hope to never have to experience that kind of horror, but I hope that if it ever does happen, that I will also have my Instructors yelling in my ears. :)

I want to hear Ron yelling at me to not let the guy get up, to use my knees and elbows. I want to hear him yelling at me that I'd better not be at slide-lock the next time I shoot.

I want to hear Bill yelling at me to aim small and miss small, to not drop shots after the reload, and to "Check-360."

I want to hear Ryan yelling at me to not spaz on the reload, and Keith yelling at me to keep my head in the game.
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Re: Learning from different schools/instructors.

Postby JediSkipdogg » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:17 pm

TSiWRX wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:I prefer the Crouching Tiger technique from Karate Kid. Wait, I'll reply to this later for real.


I thought that was "the Crane Kick?"

http://www.wolfgnards.com/index.php/201 ... crane-kick

^ :lol: 8)


I'm thinking the female karate kid where she jumped onto or over the car that came after her.


Now my reply....

I'm one that believes one needs to search out and find the instructor that works with them best. One reason I have put off taking classes at TDI so much is from people that I work with. They do training with Benner once a year and some of our competition shooters and really dead on shooters don't like his technique. I know everyone on here loves him and many other forums do as well, however, most say there's better. The only advantage is TDI is a one hour drive for me, whereas anything else is 5 hours or flying. Therefore I've done most of my training with just guys that I work with or shooting on my own.

My problem right now is my vision in my right eye. Therefore I've been training myself to shoot with my left eye until get to a doctor to see what the best way to fix it is. It's odd because it's the distance exactly where the front sight is. I'm fine with a rifle and iron sights, but not a handgun.

I also think a huge detriment is the cost of these classes. Many are in the area of $600 for two days and require 1000 rounds of ammo. Well, $600 is around 6000 rounds of 9mm reloaded. So, for that same amount I can shoot shoot and shoot and find someone to just watch what I'm doing or what I've been doing more recently....that is I've been taking my video camera to the range and seeing that I am slightly jerking the gun before each trigger pull. I'm working on that and it has greatly improved by self analyzing.

Do I think the classes are worth it? For someone that needs to maybe be forced to shoot, definitely. If you can't find time on your own to shoot at least 500 rounds a month, then yes, it will help force someone to shoot. I tell people all the time in my classes that practice makes perfect. But they also need to analyze everything going on if they happen to have a shooting problem. At that point, different people may see different errors.

Also with classes you have different stances, different ways to hold the gun ready, etc. Most instructors may only go over 1-2 methods when each method has a good purpose. Alot depends on the situation one is in and it's near impossible to train for all of those. I don't see having too many methods as bad. What you do then is take each method you learn, find what works best for YOU and then practice galore with that method to sink it into your mind. I doubt I can empasize training enough but training on your own is more important than training with a school/instructor. You can take 20 classes, but unless you sink into your mind the skillset that works for you, it will just cause confusion. I see it every day at work, there's about a dozen methods I can pull up a driver's license for someone, what works best for me may not work best for someone else. I've seen people get confused when we try to teach them every method, therefore I try one method and perfect them on it and then teach another method. In the end, as long as you get the final response I want, I don't care how you did it.
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