Range Reports

[jeep45238]

Just figured I'd give this a bit of an update.

It's a helluva carry gun. It actually replaced my Officer's 1911 as a carry gun when I can't get the 5" 1911 in. It's thin as hell, reliable as hell, accurate as hell, and is just a plain old great gun.

The only issue I've had with it is the plastic is a slick butt surface to try to grip, especially with this .40 cal in the small frame. I fixed that problem temporarily a while back with some skateboard grip tape, which worked well until some time and a little bit of solvent found their way under the tape (FYI - it's still holding up great on the Para since it's a smooth flat surface on the Para where it was applied, compared to textured on the Kahr).

I fixed it permanently today by stippling it. Stippling basically is deforming the surface of the frame where you grip it to offer a ton of resistance to motion. When it's done this way you can do an entire gun in about an hour and really, REALLY increase the purchase you can get on the thing. It gives your skin somewhere to go to when clamped hard that's held captive by the gaps created from the soldering gun tip, and the ridges help lock it in even better. Works great, even with hands drenched in water. After hitting it in the few rough areas with 80 grit paper, it's comfortable to carry and it hasn't lost any of it's new-found properties.

I'm too poor (and cheap) to send my gun off to get stippled by a pro with a soldering gun and a special tip, so I did it myself with a 30watt iron and a standard pointed tip. Same basic princible bubafied. Looks ugly, works amazingly well. Who cares it's a tool with one purpose in life, looks be damned.

[Wilhelm Tell]

Last week’s flyer from our friendly Central Ohio gun store listed Kel-Tec PF-9’s for $269. My wife and I decided to check them out, and yes, we took one home.

Out of the box

Not that we’ll ever use it for anything, but the PF-9 definitely comes in a nifty box. The little locking slides are slick.

Included in the box is what has got to be the most useless (and therefore perfect) trigger lock gizmo I’ve ever seen: two pieces of plastic for the sides of the trigger guard, a screw to hold them together, and an split-tip screwdriver key to tighten everything. Actually the key might be useful. The soviets were fond of split screws, and the key looks like it fits the grip screw on a P-64 or the screw on an underfolding AK stock.

Also included were a finger-extension magazine base plate and an Allen wrench for adjusting the rear sights. They were set perfectly, however.

There may be better deals out there, but I ordered a couple of spare magazines ($20.98 if your C&R is on file) from MidwayUSA that arrived a few days later via first class mail ($3.95).

Shooting

I pulled a bore snake across the feed ramp and through the barrel, grabbed a box of my standard plain-Jane 9mm reloads (4.5 grains of Bullseye and 115gr Rainier plated bullets), and we took it to our range in the back yard.

The three-dot sights on this gun are good. It’s easy to line the gun up quickly. We were both pleased with the gun’s accuracy. It was easier to hit with this gun from the get-go than it is with the J-frame .38 with which we’ve had lots of practice.

The slide, which was tight on the rails at first, loosened up considerably after firing only two boxes. There is no need to do a “fluff and buff” and this gun and doing so might be counterproductive for accuracy.

I attached the finger-extension base plate to one of the magazines. My wife’s shooting improved, but mine got worse. Without the extension, I can get two fingers on the grip. The extension lets me add about half of my pinkie. I suspect that during recoil, my pinkie pulls both back and down, spoiling the aim. My wife can get all three fingers on the gun nicely with the extension in place.

Recoil is about as about as severe as either of us cares to tolerate. This gun makes a full-size 1911 feel like a pussycat. We both had incipient sore elbows after splitting only one box of ammo between us. Although the gun is supposed to handle occasional use of +P ammunition, I suspect we’ll stick with standard.

The magazine catch on earlier PF-9’s was plastic. Ours is metal, which I would consider essential given the jolt it probably gets during firing.

The gun fired perfectly every time provided we didn’t limp wrist it. The corollary is also true. It failed to extract EVERY time we didn’t hold it tightly for whatever reason. This is not a target gun; nor is it a gun for beginners.

Field stripping

Disassembly and assembly of the gun are easy the second time. It took me a while to realize that the cartridge case rim you’re supposed to use to pull out the assembly pin has to be applied to the top of the pin and not the bottom. The manual doesn’t say so, but I would definitely recommend using a spent cartridge.

Reattaching the slide is easy for three-handed humans. For the rest of us, it’s a bit of a challenge to hold the grip and push back on the slide against the robust recoil springs, while pressing down on the barrel.

Packing

The PF-9 is a tight fit for carrying unobtrusively in either front or back jeans pockets so I’ll stick with my Ruger LCP for that purpose. I guess the big surprise is that my wife definitely likes the PF-9 and it has replaced the J-frame in her holster purse.

[Beekeeper]

I'm too poor (and cheap) to send my gun off to get stippled by a pro with a soldering gun and a special tip, so I did it myself with a 30watt iron and a standard pointed tip. Same basic princible bubafied. Looks ugly, works amazingly well. Who cares it's a tool with one purpose in life, looks be damned.

Man, at first I thought you put some kind of furry/fuzzy grip on that thing.










Just kiddin', looks like you did a good job to me.

[jmorman]

Took the Glock family out to a friends house to shoot this week.
My Glock 26 was bought well-well-used and the trigger is nice and smooth. I always get nice groups with it. I was loading 6 to a mag and practicing reloads. Being a lefty I noticed quickly that I have lots of problems dropping an empty mag. Will definitely need to practice that more.

Then I ran some more rounds through my new G23C. I love shooting this gun in a dimly lit setting and seeing the twin flames shoot out the top
Shot Wolf ammo this time, had a failure to feed on the one time I shot one-handed with the gun near my waist. Limp-wrist? The trigger on this glock is still very rough with only 300 rounds through it. I have done the .25 trigger job and only noticed a small difference. It will be fun breaking it in!

The finale of the evening was setting up a 18"x18" piece of cardboard at 50 yards and shooting a mag from each gun at it. The 26 hit the cardboard 5 of 10 rounds and the 23C hit 4 of 13. I didn't think this was too bad for the first time to ever shoot this far. Hopefully by the end of the year I can be hitting that everytime.

[Beekeeper]

Well, I picked up a Mossberg 500 Cruiser over the weekend. First thing I did to the gun was clean it--it was fairly dirty. Then I thoroughly degreased the gun, and camo'd it. I shot it today after getting off work, and killed some large tin cans with it. Recoil is certainly manageable, but took a couple shots to get used to since I mostly shoot shotguns with a shoulder stock and not a grip. I ran 10 rounds of #4 buckshot, and 15 rounds of 00 buckshot through it with no issues. Overall a nice gun, and will look nice beside my AR-15. I'm going to see if I can do some close range woodchuck hunting with it using #buck. I'll try to post pix of it tomorrow night.

[Wilhelm Tell]

Beretta 21A “Bobcat” .22 LR Caliber

DEFCON1 recently posted a range report on the Beretta 21A. My experience is similar. I bought my gun new in 1981 for $179.95. Mine has the “fancy” wooden grips and originally came with one clip. The design of this gun is unique: it has no extractor and rather than a normal recoil spring enshrouding the barrel, it has two pivots, on each side of the slide, that transfer the force of the recoil at a right angle down onto two springs in the grip. It’s the only common handgun with a “pop-up” barrel.

I have always had mixed feelings about this gun for several reasons:
- .22 LR just doesn’t cut it as a self-defense round.
- Despite it’s diminutive size, the gun is a little too fat to conceal easily.
- It shoots high.
- I question its reliability.

Despite all of the above, it makes a good placebo for a more realistic mouse gun like my Ruger LCP. I shoot it occasionally to get some cheap target practice. Here’s some observations from yesterday’s shooting that confirm or augment DEFCON1’s conclusions:

1. Lacking an extractor, the Beretta 21A is very particular about ammunition. It functions best with hypervelocity ammo. With standard velocity ammunition it inevitably fails to extract at least once per magazine. With CCI Stingers it functions fine, provided the chamber is cleaned at least every 100 rounds with a brass bristle brush.

2. Group size is adequate, but the non-adjustable sights place the group 6-7 inches above the point of aim at 21 feet with standard ammunition. With Stingers, the group is centered about 3 inches above the point of aim at the same distance.

3. The gun is traditional SA-DA, but somehow the (expected) difference in trigger pull weight seems especially pronounced in this little gun and is disconcerting.

4. My after-market clip functions as well as the genuine Beretta clip.

Bottom line: the Beretta 21A can be a useful CCW target pistol. It is not a carry piece.

[jazzcat]

Hello Everyone,

My wife and I recently returned to Black Wing for some shooting after our CCW class. She's still looking for a light carry weapon, so we rented some range guns (.38 snubby, XD9, Beretta NEOS).

I took along my Bersa .380, HiPoint Carbine, and NAA MiniMag .22. The Bersa had only been fired at the CCW class - the carbine and NAA had not been fired at all.

Since this was only my second time shooting, I wasn't having great luck with any of the pistols - probably 7" groups at 35 feet. The MiniMag was the worst of the bunch... being such a tiny gun with .22 Magnum you really had to hold on to it while firing. We are debating on whether to keep it or sell it.

The Bersa worked as advertised - manageable recoil, and shot 50 rounds of Remington white box without issue. It had less recoil than the .38 snubby, but about the same as the XD9 - though I suspect this was because of the greater mass of the XD9. I was pleasantly surprised to see that Black Wing carried Bersa firearms and accessories... the Thunder 380 is a good mid-size carry weapon.

The carbine was the most fun to shoot. Even at 75 feet, I was getting 3" groups, with the iron sights. In 50 rounds, there were a couple FTE's that I had to clear, where the breech closed on a half-ejected casing. Note that HiPoint just released a revised 995 - if you can find a previous generation 995, new units be had cheaply - in some cases less than $150. It's a good plinking rifle if you want something that eats the same ammo as your pistol.

[Jake]

Did a little playing this a.m.

Tested a Ranger SXT 230gr .45acp hollow point & a Hornady Critical Defense 110gr 38+P.

1st - Ranger SXT into 4 (1) gallon milk jugs.
Penetrated 3, trapped in 4th (I mistakenly thought it went thru 4 while filming).
Did this with my 1st shot.

View My Video

2nd - Hornady, It took me 5 shots to get this to work...sort of.
I had 2 "wounded" jugs left so I put a 4x4 behind the second jug to trap the bullet if it went thru. It stayed in the 2nd jug.
Not sure how that affected the results. Prior to that, the best penetration I had was into the third jug, but couldn't find the bullet.

[dfrea]

Interesting to see those results. I used to keep the Ranger SXT's in my Taurus 92, and I carry the Hornady TAP +P in my Kimber, which uses the XTP projectile (I believe).

[Jake]

video added to above post......
I had it zoomed nicely on my 38+P trial. The camera reset to default distance for my .45 trial and I didn't realize it.

[DOA33]

took out my sccy 9mm yesterday. 1st time shooting the thing, had the gun for 4 months now anyway it did awsome those cans had no idea what was coming only draw back on it was me & my friend kept pushing the safety up. We both adjusted our grip & didn't run into it anymore. I got home to clean it. You do need a flathead to get the pin out but man the frame w/o the slide is so light I like this gun alot.

[jeep45238]

This isn't really a review of a gun, but it is a review for a gun part. I'm sure some folks on here have heard of the MagPul M.A.D.. Basically it's a 90* lever that bolts onto the bolt catch of an AR15 rifle that allows the catch to be worked with the trigger finger of the right hand without releasing your firing grip. This greatly speeds up malfunction clearing as well as reloading.

It's an aluminum bar with a milled pocket for the bolt catch, and a milled lower 'hat' that grabs the bottom of the catch. A screw is threaded in to clamp them together over the bolt catch, maybe a 5 minute installation.

The manipulation of the setup is amazingly quick now.

Bolt in battery

To lock the bolt back, rack the charging handle and push up with your finger

Bolt locked back - to release, push downwards with your finger

Tada! Bolt back in battery


Profile with bolt in battery

Profile with bolt locked back



And a impromptu demo of a reload and a double feed malfunction clear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtwI2E961Mc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[pleasantguywhopacks]

This isn't really a review of a gun, but it is a review for a gun part. I'm sure some folks on here have heard of the MagPul M.A.D.. Basically it's a 90* lever that bolts onto the bolt catch of an AR15 rifle that allows the catch to be worked with the trigger finger of the right hand without releasing your firing grip. This greatly speeds up malfunction clearing as well as reloading.

It's an aluminum bar with a milled pocket for the bolt catch, and a milled lower 'hat' that grabs the bottom of the catch. A screw is threaded in to clamp them together over the bolt catch, maybe a 5 minute installation.

The manipulation of the setup is amazingly quick now.

Bolt in battery

To lock the bolt back, rack the charging handle and push up with your finger

Bolt locked back - to release, push downwards with your finger

Tada! Bolt back in battery


Profile with bolt in battery

Profile with bolt locked back



And a impromptu demo of a reload and a double feed malfunction clear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtwI2E961Mc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thats a cleaver idea, I was born with a BAD being left handed, that hand is there already. I am thinking about going to a Ambi charging handle.

I see you have an ASP on there as well. I received mine today. I'm expecting my M4 wrench Monday and I'll tear into it to get it installed.

[techres]

Range Report: Centurian .223 55 Grain Bulk Pack Ammo

Bought a bag of 500 rounds of this stuff from AIMSurplus and got it all to my door for $175 with shipping. Apperances make it out to be good stuff:



I heard from others on this board and AR15.com that the ammo was light in charge and good only for practice ammo. I decided the best course of action was to shoot up the ammo to see what would happen at an Appleseed.

475 rounds were fired by two selfless volunteers:



I fired off 25 rounds on friday to check grouping and to zero my rifle. I compared the groups of Centurian, PMC, and Pvri Match. To my surprise, the Centurian out shot the other two and was consistently very impressive with easy 2 MOA groups from a prone slung position.

At the same time, I noticed that the ammo ejected with less force than the PMC or Pvri. This is consistent with slower clock speeds other users are getting. The round is just loaded a bit light.

So I left the remaining ammo be and handed it out the next day for a shooter to test. That day he fired roughly 250 rounds and had no reliability issues at all. The ammo was fired from his AR as well as mine, and he even had a three group cluster that was 1.25 MOA with it!

The shooter reported as follows:

On the first day of a recent Appleseed, I ran approximately 250 rounds of Century .223 ammo through a Colt carbine. The rifle has a 1:7 barrel and has fired 1050 .223 rounds and 1400 .22 rounds prior to the Appleseed. The rifle was cleaned and lubed before class. I was using two Colt brand 20 round factory magazines.

All rounds fired without failure or short stroking. The recoil seemed normal. Target accuracy seemed consistent; far more consistent than the shooter's accuracy!

The next day a nice young man took up my AR and put another 200 rounds down range in the space of the day. Accuracy was again good as he initially put 13 rounds into the redcoat headshot target in pretty much one ragged hole.

By the middle of the day, he was able to score rifleman with the ammo and not long after began having some issues. While the ammo was ejecting, there was roughly a 1% short stroke rate that left the rifle jammed with the bolt riding over the case:



During one string we tore down the AR and realized just how dirty it was (I had not cleaned it all weekend). After cleaning it a couple of times, including cleaning the gas system under the timer of competition no less, the ammo went back to working.

My theory is that the light load was unable to produce the needed force to run the dirty gas impingement system. Had he been using PMC or Federal, I am guessing the short strokes would not have happened.

So, in the end, is the Centurian worth it? Yes.
Is it combat ammo? No
Is it competition ammo? Yes
Does it require a clean rifle? Yes

Will I buy more? Yes, but only if I cannot get PMC for the same price.

Oh, and here are some gratuitous pics of the testing:

[carmen fovozzo]

---------Well I made it to the range Wed. Took a Sig Mosquito for the second time, but this time I bought CCI and it fired with no problems. Clean gun and good ammo, good combination for a 22.
Next I fired my Bersa 380 with some American Eagle, it fired w/o any problem. Also had better ammo and a cleaning.
Next I fired my SKKY CPX 1 9MM. This gun is beautiful, I love it. It looks good, bi-tone stainless slide. Bought a holster for it. Was thinking about it as a CC piece for awhile, then I thought I better try it out on the range a few more times.
Next I zero'd in my LCP with the Crimson Trace on it, that was sweet at about 15 ft. After that distance I had a problem holding it steady.
I bought the first 3 guns I mentioned on this Forum. As far as I am concerned I would give these purchases a A+.
This Sunday I'm taking my wife out to shoot by my son's house out in tim buck two. She has never fired a gun before. My son who won TOP GUN in his Acadamy class will be doing the instructing. I only wish I had a 38 to have her shoot, other then all the guns I mentioned above. My son keeps telling me that would be the best for my wife. Being hard headed as I am, I didn't listen. Oh well. Anyway, I let you know how she does, I'm excited about it.