Lorain, Ohio Open Carrier Detained

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...

I went to the link posted above and followed that to the young man's own Facebook page. I looked at his photo gallery. Nearly all selfies and gangsta poses. Just not mature enough for my tastes.

Shun instead of nurture.

We won't get far if that's how we approach each opportunity given us.

And, as far as him not being mature enough, I'm the 40-something that tapes guns to his face, so I guess I'm the logical choice to talk with him.

(I don't know why, but I keep thinking about this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iyYix9umek" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

If he IS a lost cause, at least we'll know.

By contrast, during the course of this thread, I have disagree quite vehemently with BB62. I make no apologies for that. However, I have also seen how he conducts himself at an open carry event, and he is an absolute gentleman. It's a matter of trust.

And a matter of entertainment.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

By contrast, during the course of this thread, I have disagree quite vehemently with BB62. I make no apologies for that. However, I have also seen how he conducts himself at an open carry event, and he is an absolute gentleman. It's a matter of trust.

I've always wondered why the two of you always seem to disagree so heavily... I'm not always smart enough to figure out which of you is right.
The thing is, I don't think that you are on opposite sides, at least so far as gun rights go... Even though reading some of the disagreements on here from the outside would probably make someone think you two hated each other.

If you're looking for advice, remember how much you are paying each of them.

[TunnelRat]

Even though reading some of the disagreements on here from the outside would probably make someone think you two hated each other.

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend (Proverbs 27:17).

[Stryker74]

And, as far as him not being mature enough, I'm the 40-something that tapes guns to his face, so I guess I'm the logical choice to talk with him.

I thought we didn't talk about that?
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For what it's worth (I know, not much) - my view is that this young man is ignorant of the best ways to make his point. I support his right to OC a rifle of any kind - I just don't condone his behavior and attitude when confronted. He needs educated on tact and presentation for sure. A little schoolin' on how to effectively discuss his rights wouldn't hurt either.

I tell my 14 year old daily - attitude is portrayed through actions and tone/inflection of voice more often than what you actually say. In this case, this young man appeared to have a chip on his shoulder in the video. Doesn't mean that he isn't a decent guy - I just don't know that.

In terms of his gangsta poses - he is a yute. They do (as likely most of us did) indiscriminate things that they do not think through, and possibly are regretful of later. Not saying I approve, just noting that I understand.

We sit here and judge him with the wisdom that (often) comes with age. I say we share that wisdom, and educate the young man. If he then chooses to ignore it or continue in his methods - then so be it. He will find others that think and act like he does somewhere, and we can hope that he will get wiser with age as well.

If he is truly part of the cause, and wants to preserve his rights - then he will take heed of the wisdom imparted upon him.


OK - getting down from my soapbox....

[Werz]

And, as far as him not being mature enough, I'm the 40-something that tapes guns to his face, so I guess I'm the logical choice to talk with him.

I thought we didn't talk about that?
--------------------------------------------------------

For what it's worth (I know, not much) - my view is that this young man is ignorant of the best ways to make his point. I support his right to OC a rifle of any kind - I just don't condone his behavior and attitude when confronted. He needs educated on tact and presentation for sure. A little schoolin' on how to effectively discuss his rights wouldn't hurt either.

I tell my 14 year old daily - attitude is portrayed through actions and tone/inflection of voice more often than what you actually say. In this case, this young man appeared to have a chip on his shoulder in the video. Doesn't mean that he isn't a decent guy - I just don't know that.

In terms of his gangsta poses - he is a yute. They do (as likely most of us did) indiscriminate things that they do not think through, and possibly are regretful of later. Not saying I approve, just noting that I understand.

We sit here and judge him with the wisdom that (often) comes with age. I say we share that wisdom, and educate the young man. If he then chooses to ignore it or continue in his methods - then so be it. He will find others that think and act like he does somewhere, and we can hope that he will get wiser with age as well.

If he is truly part of the cause, and wants to preserve his rights - then he will take heed of the wisdom imparted upon him.

OK - getting down from my soapbox....

I will admit that my concerns were not just limited to the Facebook page:

• In the video itself, him invoking the name of his stepfather, the Lorain Police lieutenant, was way over the top. Someone who is attacking the abuse of police authority should not be using one of their sleaziest tricks: playing the so-called "professional courtesy" card.
• His history in Lorain Municipal Court is also a bit of a concern.

I'm not saying that he is beyond redemption. I'm just saying that he's not my choice for organizing an open carry walk.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Heh.

I won't tell you my name, but if you call my step-dad, he'll tell you.

I'm sure that will come up in my discussion with him.

[Werz]

Heh.

I won't tell you my name, but if you call my step-dad, he'll tell you.

I'm sure that will come up in my discussion with him.

"step-dad" = name + rank + department

And of course, he had to post that name-dropping on YouTube, so the whole world could hear it. I recently pulled a YouTube video* (where you can be seen in the background) because the person featured in that video had his name tagged to it in a Google search, and he did not want his activism affecting his ability to get a job. And he was someone who actively participated in the event. Do you think the stepfather volunteered to have his name out there in that context?


* Full Disclosure: That video is incorporated in full in another video, but that person's name is not tagged to it, nor is his name in the description. He had no problem with that. He just didn't want that video clip to come up in a name search.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...I recently pulled a YouTube video (where you can be seen in the background) because the person featured in that video had his name tagged to it in a Google search, and he did not want his activism affecting his ability to get a job...

I'm fat enough to be seen in the background of MANY videos, so I'm sure his identity is safe.

Everyone must choose their own priorities.

Earnings potential is fairly high on most people's list.

I've given up on that particular caution.

[BB62]

Bottom line: despite the fact that the Appeals Court made a statement allegedly supported by decisions in two cases, only one of the cases they cited supports their contention.

You're starting to get desperate. Attempting to invalidate a clear statement in the case law because that statement was based on two previous cases, one of which used a reverse inference? Really? Let's show everyone what the case law really states:...

<sigh>

Moving on to other things...

[BB62]

...I'm not saying that he is beyond redemption. I'm just saying that he's not my choice for organizing an open carry walk.

(Mark this down, techguy85)

I agree.

Attending an OC walk after seeing how he conducted himself when challenged, as he doubtless knew he would be, sends the little name dropper (and others) the wrong message.

I think the better course of action would have been for MWSY and/or members of NW/NE Ohio OC have a meet 'n greet with him to see if he was salvageable. At the same time, have HIM do various records requests, including looking into what the police training is in his area regarding OCers.

If instead he wants to continue to attempt to prove that he's a bada$$, leave him to the consequences of his shortsightedness and stupidity.

Twenty four years old and he conducts & presents himself (via Facebook) as he has? He clearly has issues, with what or whom I'm not sure.

[CroManGun]

And as to the assertion that "at no point during the stop did the officers articulate the fact that they thought he was too young to be in possession of the gun," reasonable suspicion need not be articulated at curbside.

Just how is one supposed to be able to ascertain whether the LEO has RAS at the time of the stop? It seems like the standard answer from them, utilizing either their right to lie to you or a lack of knowledge of the law, would be a yes if questioned.

[Werz]

And as to the assertion that "at no point during the stop did the officers articulate the fact that they thought he was too young to be in possession of the gun," reasonable suspicion need not be articulated at curbside.

Just how is one supposed to be able to ascertain whether the LEO has RAS at the time of the stop?

In a criminal case, at a suppression hearing. In a civil case, at a deposition.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Bologna sandwiches.

[TunnelRat]

Just how is one supposed to be able to ascertain whether the LEO has RAS at the time of the stop?

In a criminal case, at a suppression hearing. In a civil case, at a deposition.

Which is exactly what I was thinking while I was watching the video (and most videos of this sort). You don't argue the law with a cop on the side of the road. You argue the law in front of a judge.

When I was yet a teenager, my father (the lawyer) explained to me about being courteous to police officers. He advised me that, while I may have the right to make a telephone call, the arresting officer gets to decide whether I make that call from the police station or from the emergency room.

[Werz]

Bologna sandwiches.

Common cuisine at some county jails. You like them?