Northwood LEO breaks OC'ers D/L in half

Open Carry is carrying a firearm unconcealed in Ohio. OC does not require a concealed handgun license, but the practice requires intimate knowledge of the law since there are places and situations where OC is prohibited but carrying concealed would be permitted. OC is also likely to attract attention. This forum is for discussion of OC, not for debating the pro's and con's or coordinating any type of protest events.

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Northwood LEO breaks OC'ers D/L in half

Postby Jim-in-Toledo » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:08 pm

This incident is about a friend of mine and his daughter. He contacted me and is asking for assistance in resolving it.

On Saturday July 5, 2008 at approximately 20:30, my daughter, (redacted), and myself pulled into Netty's Ice Cream Shop at 4568 Woodville Road in Northwood, Ohio for an ice cream cone for her birthday. We were riding my motorcycle for the evening. When we arrived at Netty's, there was a short line so we stood in line for a few minutes before we were served. After receiving our ice cream cones, we returned to my motorcycle and began having a conversation.

At about 20:40, a Northwood Police car came flying into the parking lot. The officer jumped out of his patrol car and walked over to a man wearing a gray shirt, baseball cap, and blue jeans. The officer and the man in plain clothes had a short conversation and then proceeded to approach me and my daughter. I told the police officer that I held a CHL and was carrying my gun. Both men then identified themselves as Northwood police officers. The uniformed police officer then told me that he didn't want to see my concealed handgun license (CHL) but wanted my drivers license. I gave them my identification. The off-duty officer (ODO) stated that he was concerned that I was open carrying a gun with children in the area, referring to his children that were with him. I then asked him if his children had ever seen his gun since he was a Northwood police officer. He never answered my question. Both officers then proceeded to tell me that my gun had to be concealed. A "spirited" conversation then ensued about the law on concealed carry weapons. I stated that open carry was legal and stated dates and cases to prove my knowledge of the concealed carry laws. The ODO stated that I was wrong and that it was not legal. The uniformed officer then stated that open carry was illegal. I began to repeat myself to the uniformed officer when a third officer arrived and the ODO left.

The uniformed officer that had arrived stated that open carry was illegal. I told him that I had spoken with the Ohio Highway Patrol (OHP) and that they stated that open-carry was legal. He then stated that the OHP lied to me. He then told me that the Northwood Police Department had me on videotape at Speedway on Woodville Road in Northwood, Ohio, carrying open and that I was impersonating a police officer. This particular Speedway is not posted regarding carrying a concealed weapon on premise. I then asked him if I looked like a police officer since I have over 30 tattoos and multiple piercings over my body. He agreed and stated that I didn't look like a police officer. I also stated that I didn't have to wear a uniform to carry a gun and that I had the documentation to prove my information was correct but the officer wasn't interested in seeing the documents. He also stated that if he arrived at a call and saw me, because of my appearance, that I would be the first person he would take down. He continued threatening me by stating that because I didn't wear a uniform I would get shot because of my appearance. As our conversation continued the officer stated that if he arrived at the company I patrol in the area (redacted) and had seen me with a gun he would "pop" me because of my appearance. The officers said that they would let this instance slide this time but if it happened one more time that they would arrest me and let the judge decide who was right. I asked the officers on what grounds would they arrest me on and neither officer could answer my question.

The officer that had my ID gave it back to me broken. When I told him that it was a new ID and that he had broken it in two, he shrugged his shoulders and said oh well. The officers then turned and went back to their cars and left.

The following night, I returned to Speedway and the young girl at the counter stated that the officers were there asking if she was scared of me and the fact that I carry a weapon in the open and her reply was that she felt safer with me around because I stop in every night to check on her at various hours of the night and that was more than the police department has been doing for her.

This is not the first time The Northwood Police Department police officers have behaved this way towards me. There have been several encounters over the last three years involving the same issues. Each encounter has increased with hostility.

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Okay legal thinkers out there. How exactly should this be handled? What possible charges do you see in this incident? and who should the charges be filed against?

So far I have come up with the following:

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Ohio Revised Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.45

2921.45 Interfering with civil rights.

(A) No public servant, under color of his office, employment, or authority, shall knowingly deprive, or conspire or attempt to deprive any person of a constitutional or statutory right.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of interfering with civil rights, a misdemeanor of the first degree.
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Ohio Revised Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2905.12

2905.12 Coercion.

(A) No person, with purpose to coerce another into taking or refraining from action concerning which the other person has a legal freedom of choice, shall do any of the following:

(4) Institute or threaten criminal proceedings against any person;
(5) Take, withhold, or threaten to take or withhold official action, or cause or threaten to cause official action to be taken or withheld.

(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of coercion, a misdemeanor of the second degree.

(E) As used in this section:
(1) "Threat" includes a direct threat and a threat by innuendo.
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Ohio Revised Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.

(A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

(B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section.

(C) As used in this section:

(1) The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person's person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition.

(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code.
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Ohio Revised Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.11
Nothing I see in this statute is applicable to the open carrier in this incident.
(You may want to apply it to the actions of the LEO or the person calling the report in however.)

2917.11 Disorderly conduct.

(A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:
(1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;
(2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person;
(3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;
(4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender;
(5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.
(B) No person, while voluntarily intoxicated, shall do either of the following:
(1) In a public place or in the presence of two or more persons, engage in conduct likely to be offensive or to cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to persons of ordinary sensibilities, which conduct the offender, if the offender were not intoxicated, should know is likely to have that effect on others;
(2) Engage in conduct or create a condition that presents a risk of physical harm to the offender or another, or to the property of another.
(C) Violation of any statute or ordinance of which an element is operating a motor vehicle, locomotive, watercraft, aircraft, or other vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or any drug of abuse, is not a violation of division (B) of this section.
(D) If a person appears to an ordinary observer to be intoxicated, it is probable cause to believe that person is voluntarily intoxicated for purposes of division (B) of this section.
(E)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of disorderly conduct.
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Ohio Revised Code
Http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.31
Again, Nothing I see in this statute is applicable to the open carrier in this incident.
(Again, You may want to apply it to the actions of the LEO or the person calling the report in however.)

2917.31 Inducing panic.

(A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:
(1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;
(2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;
(3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.
(B) Division (A)(1) of this section does not apply to any person conducting an authorized fire or emergency drill.
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Ohio Revised Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.32
Again you may want to apply this to the actions of the LEO or the person calling the report in.

2917.32 Making false alarms.

(A) No person shall do any of the following:
(1) Initiate or circulate a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that the report or warning is false and likely to cause public inconvenience or alarm;
(3) Report to any law enforcement agency an alleged offense or other incident within its concern, knowing that such offense did not occur.
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Ohio Revised Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.51
(Nope, open carrier didn't violate this one either.)

2921.51 Impersonation of peace officer or private police officer.

(A) As used in this section:
(1) "Peace officer" means a sheriff, deputy sheriff, marshal, deputy marshal, member of the organized police department of a municipal corporation, or township constable, who is employed by a political subdivision of this state, a member of a police force employed by a metropolitan housing authority under division (D) of section 3735.31 of the Revised Code, a member of a police force employed by a regional transit authority under division (Y) of section 306.35 of the Revised Code, a state university law enforcement officer appointed under section 3345.04 of the Revised Code, a veterans' home police officer appointed under section 5907.02 of the Revised Code, a special police officer employed by a port authority under section 4582.04 or 4582.28 of the Revised Code, or a state highway patrol trooper and whose primary duties are to preserve the peace, to protect life and property, and to enforce the laws, ordinances, or rules of the state or any of its political subdivisions.
(2) "Private police officer" means any security guard, special police officer, private detective, or other person who is privately employed in a police capacity.
(3) "Federal law enforcement officer" means an employee of the United States who serves in a position the duties of which are primarily the investigation, apprehension, or detention of individuals suspected or convicted of offenses under the criminal laws of the United States.
(4) "Impersonate" means to act the part of, assume the identity of, wear the uniform or any part of the uniform of, or display the identification of a particular person or of a member of a class of persons with purpose to make another person believe that the actor is that particular person or is a member of that class of persons.
(5) "Investigator of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation" has the same meaning as in section 2903.11 of the Revised Code.
(B) No person shall impersonate a peace officer, a private police officer, a federal law enforcement officer, or investigator of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation.
(C) No person, by impersonating a peace officer, a private police officer, a federal law enforcement officer, or investigator of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation shall arrest or detain any person, search any person, or search the property of any person.
(D) No person, with purpose to commit or facilitate the commission of an offense, shall impersonate a peace officer, a private police officer, a federal law enforcement officer, an officer, agent, or employee of the state, or investigator of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation.
(E) No person shall commit a felony while impersonating a peace officer, a private police officer, a federal law enforcement officer, an officer, agent, or employee of the state, or investigator of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation.
(F) It is an affirmative defense to a charge under division (B) of this section that the impersonation of the peace officer, private police officer, or investigator of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation was for a lawful purpose.
(G) Whoever violates division (B) of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. Whoever violates division (C) or (D) of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the purpose of a violation of division (D) of this section is to commit or facilitate the commission of a felony, a violation of division (D) is a felony of the fourth degree. Whoever violates division (E) of this section is guilty of a felony of the third degree.
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Re Damaging D/L, Can anyone come up with something better or more appropriate than:

Ohio Revised Code
Http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2909.06

2909.06 Criminal damaging or endangering.

(A) No person shall cause, or create a substantial risk of physical harm to any property of another without the other person's consent:

(1) Knowingly, by any means;

(2) Recklessly, by means of fire, explosion, flood, poison gas, poison, radioactive material, caustic or corrosive material, or other inherently dangerous agency or substance.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal damaging or endangering, a misdemeanor of the second degree.
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Re Uniform and Badges:

Ohio Administrative Code
http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4501%3A5-1-12

4501:5-1-12 Uniforms.

(A) Registered employees of licensees are not required to wear uniforms. Any uniforms worn by such employees, except as provided in paragraph (D) of this rule, shall be readily distinguishable from the uniforms worn by law enforcement authorities. Identifying patches shall be required on all uniforms. A licensee's patches shall be distinct and shall be visible at all times. The name of the licensee's business shall be clearly displayed on the patches; initials shall be allowed with prior written approval of the department of public safety. Where blazer-type jackets are used, the identifying patch may be worn on either the left breast pocket; or on the left sleeve near the shoulder seam.

(B) Registered employees of licensees are not required to wear badges. Any badges used by such employees, except as provided in paragraph (D) of this rule, shall be furnished by the licensee. All badges used shall be numbered for identification, shall include the name of the licensee's business, and shall be clearly marked at all times. The licensee shall keep an up-to-date record showing to whom each badge has been issued. Badges shall be distinct from those of the local or state law enforcement authorities.

(C) Employees of one licensee shall not wear the uniform of another licensee even if a contract or subcontract relationship exists between the two licensees.

(D) Peace officers, as defined in division (B) of section 2935.01 of the Revised Code, with the written consent of the department with which the officer is commissioned, may wear the uniform and badge of the department, within the jurisdiction to which the peace officer is commissioned.

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Last edited by Daniel on Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Changed to a sticky since we are making plans for a walk-sabalo
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Postby Jim-in-Toledo » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:14 pm

Following up, here is the daughters statement as to what she observed.

My name is (redacted) and the following is my statement with regards to the events on Saturday July 5, 2008. It was my birthday and my father; (redacted). picked me up for an ice cream cone to celebrate my birthday with me. He picked me up on his motorcycle because he knows that I enjoy riding with him as much as he does. We stopped at Netty’s Ice Cream Shop on Woodville Road in Northwood, OH at about 8:30 p.m. After receiving our order, we returned to the motorcycle and started having a conversation when an off-duty police officer approached us telling my dad that his gun wasn’t covered properly. At about that time, a Northwood police officer arrived and began telling my dad that the law states that a gun needs to be covered at all times. Then a third police officer arrived when this officer arrived the off-duty officer left. He began arguing with my dad about the issue of how he needed to carry his gun. Throughout the arguing, the police officer threatened my dad by stating that if he saw my dad walking around with a gun at the local (redacted) company (redacted) where he patrols, that he would take my dad down first. He then told my dad that he was misinformed about the law and that only uniformed officers were permitted to carry their guns in the open. He also stated that someday my dad would get “popped” because of his appearance. During the argument, the officer told my dad that he could arrest him but that he would let it slide. My dad also asked the officer what he would arrest him for and the officer didn’t know but that maybe he was impersonating a police officer. When my dad reminded the officer of another encounter with him, he told my dad that next time he would arrest him and let the judge sort it out and decide who was right on the law.
The second officer was calling in my dad’s license during this argument. The officer kept bending the license back and forth until it broke. When the officer realized that he couldn’t arrest my dad for anything, he gave my dad back his license that he had broken. My dad realized that the officer had broken the license and when my dad told him he broke it, he shrugged his shoulders and said oh well. Then both uniformed officers turned and left in their vehicles.
I was scared while this arguing was going on because I wasn’t sure if the officers were going to arrest my dad or shoot him. I enjoy riding with my dad and spending time with him. I know the local police harass him a lot because of his appearance and his job. I have heard about many arguments that my dad has had with the Northwood Police Department over the same issues that were argued about on this occasion.
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Postby WBL_2006 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:20 pm

They need to get their stories straight first of all.

At about 20:40, a Northwood Police car came flying into the parking lot. The officer jumped out of his patrol car and walked over to a man wearing a gray shirt, baseball cap, and blue jeans.



After receiving our order, we returned to the motorcycle and started having a conversation when an off-duty police officer approached us telling my dad that his gun wasn’t covered properly.


The clerk probably told them she thought you were a cop since you had your gun exposed and

".....because I stop in every night to check on her at various hours of the night and that was more than the police department has been doing for her."


It sounds like bit far fetched to me. But at least it ended up without anyone being arrested, shot, or dropping their ice cream....

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Postby McM » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:22 pm

I would have asked them if I was being formally detained. If so, I'd invoke my right to shut the hell up. If not, I would go, leave, and make a compliant the next day at the station. Arguing with cops does nothing good for your cause, and only gives you a chance to put your foot in your mouth and do or say something to put you in the wrong.

Also, hasn't the Willowick incident taught OCers to always carry a recording device with them by now? I'd at least ask for the dashcam video of this one. Worry less about a lawsuit or 'getting the cops' than proving you are right and using this for the greater good, like OFCC did in the Willowick incident.
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Postby Jim-in-Toledo » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:31 pm

McM wrote:-snip-

Also, hasn't the Willowick incident taught OCers to always carry a recording device with them by now? I'd at least ask for the dashcam video of this one. Worry less about a lawsuit or 'getting the cops' than proving you are right and using this for the greater good, like OFCC did in the Willowick incident.

He is not comfortable using a computer, and had not been aware of the Willowick incident.

I have sent all info I have to Daniel and have asked for his and OFCC's assistance in dealing with this incident.

{Thread clean-up in progress - Mods}
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Postby Jim-in-Toledo » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:42 pm

{Quote deleted - post that follows was in response to messages that have been removed - Mods}

1] I was told by Daniel today to go ahead and post the initial 2 posts in this thread.

2] I have been in contact with him since very shortly (hours) of learning of it myself.

3] I have basically tried to turn the situation over to OFCC to handle and am glad they have decided to get involved further, and I will cooperate fully with them in their efforts.

4] I will let Daniel, or other OFCC Reps address any further issues related to the handling of this situation.

Jim
Last edited by Jim-in-Toledo on Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby willbird » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:43 pm

All I can say is...."WOW".

Wondering if any security cams have a tape of this whole deal, ditto for dash cams.

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Postby muxtech » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:44 pm

It sounds like the Northwood PD are uncomfortable using computers as well. :shock: What the heck is wrong with these cops? I'm going to shut up and wait for this guy to be FIRED for menacing law abiding citizens.

Threatening to "pop" him? Yeaaah that's ethical.

Isn't it interesting this was instigated by another ODO.
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Postby willbird » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:46 pm

This just makes me wonder how much of this is going on that we do NOT hear about ??

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Postby color of law » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:50 pm

A-OK Just as I thought.
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Postby DOCDC1 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:57 pm

Guess it's time to sit back, light up a cigar, sip on a glass of scotch and wait for OFCC to work their magic.

Glad as heck you're here OFCC.

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Postby willbird » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:08 pm

DOCDC1 wrote:Guess it's time to sit back, light up a cigar, sip on a glass of scotch and wait for OFCC to work their magic.

Glad as heck you're here OFCC.

Doc


I'll second that motion, you can have my ceegar and scotch too because I imbibe in neither.....I'll just sip a cold diet coke :-)

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Postby color of law » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:12 pm

[Deleted: Please do not discussing the Moderator's activities; if you have a problem, use the PM function directly -- TR]

From this point on I will only lurk and refrain from commenting from this point on.
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Postby ArcherAce » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:04 pm

This is ridiculous.

We need to change our name to Ohioans Education Ohio Officers. :roll:
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Postby MR D » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:24 pm

someone owes someone else a new operators license...

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