Here in Ohio most of the state population must approve of the concept. Throwing an inmate the "hole" for 30 days. Isn't that abuse Or stripping an inmate then throwing him/her in an isolation cell with no bed, toilet, sink, or anything else, because they decided to eat their bed springs so they get a free trip to the hospital. Now that's real torture and abuse
It also seems to me that abuse and torture have been around ever since humans became humans. Is it right? Probably not. But quite frankly we are extremely civilized compared to 99% of the other countries in the world.
And one thing that would help our image a lot is to get the journalists out of the combat areas. It seems every time they publish the articles and photos in the western countries there's an immidate knee jerk reaction by the "sensitive" public.
and yes, i think waterboarding is torture, and so did our government before we started doing it.
I am wondering by what you mean by WE ? Does that include yourself. Here is a simple example of torture. Someone has kidnaped your child and you know someone that is involved in the kidnaping. What do YOU do ? You have 2 choices. 1 is to do nothing, the other is to tell this person that I am going to break your legs if you don't tell me what I want to know. If they don't tell you, what will you do ? Waiting for LE is not a option.
As in "we", i mean our government.
But, sorry. You can throw all these crazy super unlikely scenarios at me you want, i just dont agree with torturing, or the suspension of habeus corpus for that matter.
XD; I've tossed a lot of guys into the hole for longer than 30 days, but I never beat them or water boarded them. I did give them 15-45 and a ride on the bus. I followed the rules. My philosophy of inmate management and control was as follows:
1.) Talk for 20 minutes before you fight for 5 minutes.
2.) Tell them that they can go easy, or they can go hard, but they are going to go.
3.) Never raise one's voice, but always have, ultimately, overwhelming odds on your side.
I worked in the system after "grain and drain" and the "white hat brigade" had been abolished. That was after the Taylor lawsuit.
I guess it depends on the state. My son worked in the New York state system. He was on their Disturbance Control Team. They dressed in orange jump suits and were nicknamed "Orange Crush" for obvious reasons.
Tweed Ring wrote:XD; I've tossed a lot of guys into the hole for longer than 30 days, but I never beat them or water boarded them. I did give them 15-45 and a ride on the bus. I followed the rules. My philosophy of inmate management and control was as follows:
1.) Talk for 20 minutes before you fight for 5 minutes.
2.) Tell them that they can go easy, or they can go hard, but they are going to go.
3.) Never raise one's voice, but always have, ultimately, overwhelming odds on your side.
I worked in the system after "grain and drain" and the "white hat brigade" had been abolished. That was after the Taylor lawsuit.
I guess it depends on the state. My son worked in the New York state system. He was on their Disturbance Control Team. They dressed in orange jump suits and were nicknamed "Orange Crush" for obvious reasons.
You can do all those things, and w/o waterboarding or beating. The point is it still considered "cruel and/or unusual punishment" under the current UN conventions. Hell TW Capital Punishment is too. Just ask any French National even a Brit. What irks me is very little is ever published, if even mentioned about the beheadings or other more drastic penalties inflicted in the Middle East or even the rest of the world for that matter. Waterboarding and beatings are nothing compared to what the French and British did in the Colonies and Africa. Now that most of the colonies no longer exist "they" are very quick to condem the US for any so called human rights violations.
Now someone tell me who the villians really are and what country they're from.
We're Americans. I have always believed due to our history, our Bill of Rights, and our Constitution, we’re better than other governments and other countries. We should set the standard for the rest of the world. We should not engage in what can easily be defined as torture. I’m not a pacifist; I’m a Constitutionalist.
Having said the above, I am a big believer in what was known in the past as “gunboat diplomacy.” Back in the day, when some tin pot dictator or some desert sheik had the temerity to harm an American citizen, they would soon after wake up one morning with a goodly portion of the U.S. Navy docked off their coast. Next, they got their butts kicked. Repeated, if necessary. Eventually, they got the message, or they went away.
The real villians are the people who hate us, and our freedoms, wherever they exist.
TW:
Seem's you forgot one thing. The US is no longer an independent nation. We now get to answer to every despot and "civilized" nation in the world. What we were in the gunboat era is gone. And believe me we now have to answer to any and every third world dictator, emirate, or ruler who wants to run things their way.
The process beginning in the late fifty's and began snowballing in the mid 70's. Now I don't think we, (middle class slobs like me) have the ability to change it.
Think I'm done with this particular thread.
XD: While I do not completely agree with your commentary, I understand your rationale. I do agree that individuals do not have the power to create change. That's why each and every election is important, and all elections have consequences, becasue the individual will becomes co-joined with like minded individuals.
On the subject of "terrorism and torture"; does anyone know if it's on the agenda of the United Nations ? Or are they too busy in discussions with George Soros on how to disarm American citizens ?
I have always thought the good diplomats at the UN and their staff members were too busy lining their own pockets to do much to have impact upon the USA.
Most of the open source writing from counter-terror practitioners converges on the idea of operational practicality, a perspective you can safely bet 100% of media coverage will neglect. Operationality sums up as:
Torture as a routine interrogation technique hurts counter-terror efforts because 1) it produces unreliable information (people will say anything to make it stop), 2) word gets out among enemy combatants that it is a routine, which produces opportunity for coordinated resistance, 3) the power and prestige of the US is damaged by the public perception.
However, in cases where the subject is known to have operationally critical information ("where is the bomb [hideout, hostage, etc.]?") torture is the last resort in a rapidly escalating sequence of options, which produces sound results because the subject knows you know he knows. In such cases, the resolution of the crisis (saving of life, killing or capture of high-value targets) outweighs whatever outcome the legal systems may deliver for the interrogation subject (seperately) as a result of the torture.
The practical aspect of this logic makes it immune to public policy debate, like nearly all intel practices, because it holds true in any situation, regardless of the sponsoring nation. Which is why the Congress should clearly resolve this debate in public in such a way as to preserve the power and prestige of the US in public opinion, and let the intel practitioners do what they have always done, which is choose to risk their lives and careers in secret on the "ends justify the means" doctrine.
Or stripping an inmate then throwing him/her in an isolation cell with no bed, toilet, sink, or anything else, because they decided to eat their bed springs so they get a free trip to the hospital. Now that's real torture and abuse 