The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

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The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby bignflnut » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:36 am

There is no good research on the effect of arming teachers or the effect of putting more armed police or security in schools — which by itself should raise red flags, given that policy should be evidence-based. But based on the evidence we do have, there’s enough to suggest that putting more guns in schools could actually make gun violence worse.

SNIP

1) The research is clear: more guns, more gun deaths

The US is unique in two key — and related — ways when it comes to guns: It has way more gun deaths than other developed nations, and it has far more guns than any other country in the world.

SNIP

2) For every criminal killed in self-defense, there are dozens more murders

SNIP

His findings: For every justifiable gun homicide, there were 34 criminal gun homicides, 78 gun suicides, and two accidental gun deaths.

3) Stopping a mass shooting is hard, even with firearms training

SNIP

Reality, however, is more complicated: Even when people are armed, that doesn’t mean they can properly respond to a mass shooting.

Multiple simulations have demonstrated that most people, if placed in an active shooter situation while armed, will not be able to stop the situation, and may in fact do little more than get themselves killed in the process.

SNIP

None of that is to say that a “good guy with a gun” wouldn’t ever be able to stop a shooter. We have seen some high-profile cases in which that happened. But the bulk of the findings, from news investigations to the FBI’s report to The Daily Show, suggest that this idea is often going to play out very differently than supporters like Trump envision — and sometimes could lead to more innocent people getting caught in the crossfire.

If America wants to confront its gun violence problem, then, the research suggests it should look to reducing the number of guns in circulation — not putting more armed people into schools.


1)Staggering amounts of numbers that make it seem like the guns are to blame, because that's the policy goal. No historical data that shows any correlation between guns per person leading to violence per person.

2) There are so many unreported events, the "justifiable" homicides have to work through the system to be so declared...this is a non-starter, but it SOUNDS scary and statistical. Side Note: These people are using stats, data, hard numbers in to make their case, but can't identify a male or a female...that's on a spectrum. Is reality objective and able to be recorded in data, or is it relative and based on feelings?

3) Well, it can't be done. Nobody can stop this violence. Hello Fatalism
"if you have a lone wolf assassin that's committed to commit great carnage and killing people, there's nothing you can do about it." Watch 1 minute into the clip


I've got some research for ya...let's draw a line at 1991 and see what we find:

2018, February 14 - Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school shootings - (17 deaths)
2017, November 14 - Rancho Tehama Reserve shootings - (6 deaths)
2017, April 10 - North Park Elementary School shooting - (3 deaths)
2015, October 1 - Umpqua Community College shooting - (10 deaths)
2014, October 24 - Marysville Pilchuck High School shooting - (5 deaths)
2013, June 7 - 2013 Santa Monica shooting - (6 deaths)
2013, January 15 - (3 deaths) [10]
2012, December 14 - Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings - (28 deaths)
2012, April 2 - Oikos University shooting - (7 deaths)
2012, February 27 - Chardon High School shooting - (3 deaths)
2010, February 12 - University of Alabama in Huntsville shooting - (3 deaths)
2008, February 14 - Northern Illinois University shooting - (6 deaths)
2007, April 6 - Virginia Tech massacre - (33 deaths)
2006, October 2 - West Nickel Mines School shooting - (6 deaths)
2005, March 21 - Red Lake shootings - (10 deaths)
2002, January 16 - Appalachian School of Law shooting - (3 deaths)
1999, April 20 - Columbine High School massacre - (15 deaths)
1998, May 21 - Thurston High School shooting - (4 deaths)
1998, March 24 - Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden - (5 deaths)
1997, December 1 - Heath High School shooting - (3 deaths)
1997, October 1 - Pearl High School shooting - (3 deaths)
1996, August 15 - San Diego State University shooting - (3 deaths)
1996, February 2 - Frontier Middle School shooting - (3 deaths)
1992, May 1 - Lindhurst High School shooting - (3 deaths)
1991, November 1 - University of Iowa shooting - (6 deaths)
1989, January 17 - Stockton schoolyard shooting - (6 deaths)[11]
1976, July 12 - California State University, Fullerton massacre - (7 deaths)
1974, December 30 - Olean High School shooting - (3 deaths)
1970, May 4 - Kent State shootings - (4 deaths)
1966, November 12 - Mesa, Arizona - (5 deaths) [12]
1966, August 1 - University of Texas tower shooting - (17 deaths)
1940, May 6 - Pasadena - (5 deaths) [4][13][14][7]
1898, December 13 - Charleston - (6 deaths) [8]
1893, March 26 - Plain Dealing high school - (4 deaths) [9]
1868, December 22 - (3 deaths) [15]
1764, July 26 - Enoch Brown - (10 deaths)


Are we able to reject failed policies that were passed with overwhelming support?

Stop cherry picking stats about general society that you think have some relation to school violence. Do you want to run an analysis on SSRIs and mass shootings? Single parent households vs violence? We could run an analysis of gallons of soda sold vs violence in the nation. We could analyze the quality of music over the years vs violence. Stop trying to say that you hold to objective, statistical proof about much of anything.

We haven't made the arming of teachers a policy in the past, therefore the data isn't available. We have, however, a great deal of data regarding disarming people in schools.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby Javelin Man » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:18 pm

I am amazed but not surprised about the wave of support to arm teachers toward the later part of this week. From banning anything that goes pop or louder to give teachers training and support to bring something in to fight back with in just a matter of about 72 hours. :shock:
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby AlanM » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:41 am

Isn't it interesting that the preponderance of school shootings have occurred AFTER 1990 when, in response to the 1989, January 17 - Stockton schoolyard shooting, Congress passed the Gun Free School Zone law?
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby AlanM » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 pm

By the way, I just transferred the entire Wiki list of school shooting in the US into a spreadsheet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

One thing immediately jumped out at me.
In 253 years and 9 months shootings in US schools have resulted in 156 deaths and about 246 injuries in a total 471 incidents.
(There were a couple of listings where injuries were stated as "several"so total injuries is actually a little higher.)
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby M-Quigley » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:09 pm

There is no good research on the effect of arming teachers or the effect of putting more armed police or security in schools —


The statement might be true if you limit your research to just the USA, but if you include places which have had school shooting prior to the US (like Israel) there is good evidence that arming teachers works. On one occasion it even worked against 3 terrorists armed with real assault rifles. Besides, very few schools in the US allow arming teachers, and many don't even have anyone there armed at all, including law enforcement. In science, you can't properly research the effects of something you refuse to try.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby schmieg » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:21 pm

After the debacle in Parkland, one question that no one has posed is if police officers are reluctant to enter and engage a shooter in the school, how unlikely is it that a teacher who has volunteered to be armed and trained accordingly will not engage or try to take out the shooter when the teacher is one of the obvious targets. I would venture to say that even those teachers who cringe at the idea might be inclined to take action if the gunman is throwing bullets their way.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby AlanM » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:30 am

I screwed up my previous post. My spreadsheet had a serious error.
Here's the real synopsis values:

471 incidents in 253.76 years.
201 of those occurred before 1990.
270 have occurred in the last 28 years.
1990 is the year that the US Congress passed the School Gun Free Zone law.

Totals:
Deaths: 585
Injuries: 886 (at least) two or three reports of "several injuries" instead of a number. I used a value of 1)

Since the 1990 Gun Free School Zone law:
351 deaths.
524 injuries.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby gilly32 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:28 am

Here are a couple of takes from former educators about arming teachers. This was in Peter King's MMQB column this morning:

• Smith, former high-school English teacher in Compton, Calif.: “I taught in Compton, Calif., at a school with a lot of needs: We needed more books, more school supplies, more community support. We did not need guns. Despite what some people might think about Compton, I never saw a gun or heard a gunshot in all the time I spent there, nor did I ever feel threatened by gun violence. I would have felt threatened if my colleagues had guns. Accidents happen with guns. Mistakes happen with guns. Lorenzo Prado, one of the students who survived the Parkland shooting, was mistaken for the shooter and was detained by police at gunpoint as he fled the shooting. What if an armed teacher, with less training and experience in such situations, had felt it necessary not just to detain Lorenzo but to shoot him? Mistakes like that are certain to happen if we arm teachers and tell them they need to be prepared to kill one of their own students on a moment’s notice. I wouldn’t have trusted myself to make a life-or-death decision like that. Whatever the cost of arming teachers would be, I’d rather put that money toward training teachers to identify troubled students and counsel them before it reaches the point where they’re shooting up schools. Putting more guns in more schools is a bad idea.”

• Tanier, former high-school math teacher in south Jersey: “I spent 17 years teaching in public high schools in New Jersey, through Columbine, 9/11 and a bunch of now long-forgotten crises. My wife is the Teacher of the Year in her district. I have worked with a few teachers who wish to be armed and many more who would resign if our colleagues were armed. I have worked with brilliant, dedicated educators, as well as substance abusers, overt racists, insecure guys with anger management issues and scatterbrains who left their car keys on cafeteria tables. Parents and administrators rarely identified correctly which was which. I taught with, at most, a half-dozen military or police veterans scattered across three districts, none of whom left their old careers so they could carry a sidearm through hallways overcrowded with children. The teachers who do fantasize that they can sneak around like John Wick picking off school shooters aren’t ex-military. More often, they are the same ones who get into red-faced screaming matches with black kids over dress-code violations. Teachers share the building with children classified as emotionally disturbed, oppositional-defiant, socially maladjusted, bipolar and with many other conditions that cause sudden, unpredictable behavior. There are kids who see guns and want to escalate a conflict, and kids who see them and become too scared to function. And remember (because so many have forgotten): the goal is to educate and nurture the kids so they can flourish, not just to warehouse them for the workday. Arming teachers will create either: a) glorified penitentiaries; b) Arkham Asylums; or c) a whole new set of reasons for NFL players to kneel during the national anthem. I am frightened of the segment of society that sees any of these as good solutions.”
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby Javelin Man » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:46 pm

So Peter King is satisfied with the status quo? Keep the schools as a soft target because he met a couple teachers who are insecure about firearms and project that all other teachers would either wet themselves or go on a rampage if they didn't forget their firearm on the cafeteria table during lunch?
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby WayneB » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:47 pm

Can't the same case be made for "some" LE? Anger issues, power & control issues, racist tendencies, dealing with terrible people, etc.etc. and yet -- so many call for ONLY them to be the ones with guns.

That's certainly not a LEO bash. Point is, we're all human and all imperfect. But one thing is absolutely certain. If/when a gunman enters the school or a classroom, the teacher (or other personnel) WILL be the front line of defense. The only question is, have they been trained and given the best tools for the job? They may or may not respond, but without training and tools, they have no chance.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby WestonDon » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:22 pm

gilly32 wrote:Here are a couple of takes from former educators about arming teachers. This was in Peter King's MMQB column this morning:

• Smith, former high-school English teacher in Compton, Calif.: “I taught in Compton, Calif., at a school with a lot of needs: We needed more books, more school supplies, more community support. We did not need guns. Despite what some people might think about Compton, I never saw a gun or heard a gunshot in all the time I spent there, nor did I ever feel threatened by gun violence. I would have felt threatened if my colleagues had guns. Accidents happen with guns. Mistakes happen with guns. Lorenzo Prado, one of the students who survived the Parkland shooting, was mistaken for the shooter and was detained by police at gunpoint as he fled the shooting. What if an armed teacher, with less training and experience in such situations, had felt it necessary not just to detain Lorenzo but to shoot him? Mistakes like that are certain to happen if we arm teachers and tell them they need to be prepared to kill one of their own students on a moment’s notice. I wouldn’t have trusted myself to make a life-or-death decision like that. Whatever the cost of arming teachers would be, I’d rather put that money toward training teachers to identify troubled students and counsel them before it reaches the point where they’re shooting up schools. Putting more guns in more schools is a bad idea.”

• Tanier, former high-school math teacher in south Jersey: “I spent 17 years teaching in public high schools in New Jersey, through Columbine, 9/11 and a bunch of now long-forgotten crises. My wife is the Teacher of the Year in her district. I have worked with a few teachers who wish to be armed and many more who would resign if our colleagues were armed. I have worked with brilliant, dedicated educators, as well as substance abusers, overt racists, insecure guys with anger management issues and scatterbrains who left their car keys on cafeteria tables. Parents and administrators rarely identified correctly which was which. I taught with, at most, a half-dozen military or police veterans scattered across three districts, none of whom left their old careers so they could carry a sidearm through hallways overcrowded with children. The teachers who do fantasize that they can sneak around like John Wick picking off school shooters aren’t ex-military. More often, they are the same ones who get into red-faced screaming matches with black kids over dress-code violations. Teachers share the building with children classified as emotionally disturbed, oppositional-defiant, socially maladjusted, bipolar and with many other conditions that cause sudden, unpredictable behavior. There are kids who see guns and want to escalate a conflict, and kids who see them and become too scared to function. And remember (because so many have forgotten): the goal is to educate and nurture the kids so they can flourish, not just to warehouse them for the workday. Arming teachers will create either: a) glorified penitentiaries; b) Arkham Asylums; or c) a whole new set of reasons for NFL players to kneel during the national anthem. I am frightened of the segment of society that sees any of these as good solutions.”


I ALMOST feel sorry for these knuckleheads....Nah.... They have way too much influence over young people so screw 'em. May they have to rely on the Broward County Sheriff's Office to save their sorry butts. I'm just glad I don't live in their world.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby M-Quigley » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:53 am

If the school staff is as incomptetent as is claimed, that should tell parents something about allowing them to teach their children. Sadly though for many parents or single parent's, it isn't about the best education or influence for the child, it's warehousing them for several hours a day in the public school system.
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby AlanM » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:28 am

A fellow poster on Quora.com took the same data set I use for school shootings and compared the 27 years prior to 1990 gun free zone law versus the last 27 years.
Here's his graphic results.
Image

A much larger version can be found here: https://i.imgur.com/d1oIZEi.jpg
or here: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d ... 2c71a19ead
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby bignflnut » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:59 am

Image
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Re: The (Weak) Case against Arming Teachers

Postby kcclark » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:33 pm

Sunday's Columbus Dispatch carried a NY Times article on schools arming teachers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/us/armed-teachers-guns-schools.html

Article looked at schools in Sidney, Ohio. Teachers don't actually carry. There are fingerprints operated safes hidden around buildings. When the teacher needs a gun, a Glock is located nearby. Eliminates the argument about how teachers cannot hide a gun on their person.

Unfortunately, the NY Times' reporters fairly quickly included this BS:
A bulletproof vest is nearby, in an undisclosed location, fortified to protect against any bullet except one fired from an assault rifle.

Gotta make their daily of quota of "assault rifle" misinformation.
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