Cops getting gun cameras?

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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby bignflnut » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:13 am

carmen fovozzo wrote:Strong hiring practice does not always make a good officer...I know officers that didn't score high on tests but were later hired on departments that didn't give tests and became good officers over the years..

I think and this is just my opinion....Departments are losing out because there testing is to hard...you don't need to be a college grad to become a cop, you need street smarts and common sense...

They need to take a look at their hiring practices if they want more applicants...there out there.


Fear not, sir, application standards are being lowered:

This has left the Dallas PD in an uncomfortable situation: Not only are there a record 250 open jobs to fill, but the enticements to lure quality recruits have been diminished, and with all the attention surrounding police killings, departments are hoping to be more discerning when hiring new recruits.

All of this has forced Dallas Police CHief Renee Hall to consider more creative recruiting strategies.

The recruitment shortage that’s occurred as a result in some areas is forcing police departments to develop creative strategies for luring millennial recruits to the force. In January, Hall plans to roll out a program that will give a total of four to six days off for officers that recruit someone who is hired and graduates from the academy.

SNIP

Additionally, Hall plans to start recruiting Dallas ISD students and hiring them as public service officers until they can be peace officers at age 19-and-a-half. She says it is within her power as chief to hire applicants who would currently not qualify because they admit to infractions like minor drug use.

"We recognize that when you're 17 and you do something silly or stupid, you're a different person when you're 24,” she said.

Chief Coatney, whose department has run out of ambulances on occasion this year, said he’s working to shorten his department's long application process.

"We've changed our entire hiring process,” he said. “Now, we have an open hiring period. People can apply at any time."
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby JediSkipdogg » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:14 am

carmen fovozzo wrote:Strong hiring practice does not always make a good officer...I know officers that didn't score high on tests but were later hired on departments that didn't give tests and became good officers over the years..

I think and this is just my opinion....Departments are losing out because there testing is to hard...you don't need to be a college grad to become a cop, you need street smarts and common sense...

They need to take a look at their hiring practices if they want more applicants...there out there.


How do you test for street smarts and common sense short of hiring them and trying them out?

And I agree that testing does wean some quality candidates out, but with civil service you have to have some sort of testing. And you simply can't interview 150 applicants or find quality based off what is placed on an application.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby willbird » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:34 am

JediSkipdogg wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:Strong hiring practice does not always make a good officer...I know officers that didn't score high on tests but were later hired on departments that didn't give tests and became good officers over the years..

I think and this is just my opinion....Departments are losing out because there testing is to hard...you don't need to be a college grad to become a cop, you need street smarts and common sense...

They need to take a look at their hiring practices if they want more applicants...there out there.


How do you test for street smarts and common sense short of hiring them and trying them out?

And I agree that testing does wean some quality candidates out, but with civil service you have to have some sort of testing. And you simply can't interview 150 applicants or find quality based off what is placed on an application.
IMHO it works the best where the voters have some impact on the system. Way out here in the sticks the County Sheriff sets the tone for interaction between his deputies and the public. He is accessible to us in person (one time I went to see him without an apt in advance anyway he was), and I'd presume by mail too. The locals are controlled by their city council. Point is if stuff starts to go sideways the voters can rein it in. Now in a a big city, or county no way.

Lesson, never live in a big city and especially not a big city which is within a big county ;-).

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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby carmen fovozzo » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:44 am

JediSkipdogg wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:Strong hiring practice does not always make a good officer...I know officers that didn't score high on tests but were later hired on departments that didn't give tests and became good officers over the years..

I think and this is just my opinion....Departments are losing out because there testing is to hard...you don't need to be a college grad to become a cop, you need street smarts and common sense...

They need to take a look at their hiring practices if they want more applicants...there out there.


How do you test for street smarts and common sense short of hiring them and trying them out?

And I agree that testing does wean some quality candidates out, but with civil service you have to have some sort of testing. And you simply can't interview 150 applicants or find quality based off what is placed on an application.


OJT......
On the job training.....just like the Trades do...they hire, give them OJT, if they don't work out so be it...2 months of it should be able to tell TO's if they are officer material....expensive , yes....after academy then OJT...for 8 weeks...
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby willbird » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 am

carmen fovozzo wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:Strong hiring practice does not always make a good officer...I know officers that didn't score high on tests but were later hired on departments that didn't give tests and became good officers over the years..

I think and this is just my opinion....Departments are losing out because there testing is to hard...you don't need to be a college grad to become a cop, you need street smarts and common sense...

They need to take a look at their hiring practices if they want more applicants...there out there.


How do you test for street smarts and common sense short of hiring them and trying them out?

And I agree that testing does wean some quality candidates out, but with civil service you have to have some sort of testing. And you simply can't interview 150 applicants or find quality based off what is placed on an application.


OJT......
On the job training.....just like the Trades do...they hire, give them OJT, if they don't work out so be it...2 months of it should be able to tell TO's if they are officer material....expensive , yes....after academy then OJT...for 8 weeks...


Where I work the solution from when I hired in until just recently was to ONLY hire people through a temp agency. Depending on their need for people some went "full time"....which oddly enough was known as "getting your papers"...in 90 days, and as need for people slowed down it eventually went 9-12 mos...and maybe even as long as 14 mos in some cases.

During that time pretty much ONE instance of being less than adult and they showed you the door.

Also attendance policy was fairly strict for temps too.

That process weeded out a LOT of people....however a fair number "got their papers" to be hired full time, and FAILED the pre employment drug screen, or what they gave the temp agency to prove they had HSD/GED turned out to be fraudulent (in at least one case anyway).

The job market has tightened up and now they finally had to go to direct hire...so the HR folks actually have to check background and do interviews, and I'd expect the washout rate to rise. But plain and simple nobody is willing to work for temp agency unless that HAVE to.

Bill
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby Werz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:39 am

willbird wrote:I'm uncaring whether you buy it or not :-). I'm not expecting them to surrender "reasonable safety", I'm just being open minded about them being held accountable legally and civilly when a gun comes out of the holster. Weeding out the Daniel Harless who have not gotten caught yet might be a very good thing for LE in general.

The tech is pretty much "there" for it to be unobtrusive and not an issue as far as that goes...so what is the real issue, having some accountability ?? An institutional inability to follow rules by an institution that enforces the following of rules ??

The technology is pretty much there for an on duty LE to be on camera/audio their whole shift, would that be a BAD thing ??

Most of the officers in my area already have personal body cameras. As soon as you mandate that officers have gun cameras, you give permission to the urban coastal elites to demand that your gun have all the clever safety devices that they can imagine, because, after all, at least the police have training, and the anti-gunners don't trust you to handle a firearm safely. Do you really want to invite that?

The SJW traditional wisdom about body cameras is already being deconstructed, just like I predicted. For every video showing an officer engaging in questionable behavior, there will be ten videos showing the people they encounter acting like little monsters. That's why the SJWs are screeching like little girls about body camera videos becoming public record; they have suddenly realized that those videos can easily become a source of embarrassment for them, their families, and their friends, even though they richly deserve that embarrassment.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby bignflnut » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:39 am

Werz wrote:
The SJW traditional wisdom about body cameras is already being deconstructed, just like I predicted. For every video showing an officer engaging in questionable behavior, there will be ten videos showing the people they encounter acting like little monsters. That's why the SJWs are screeching like little girls about body camera videos becoming public record;...


Great semicolon!
Body cams certainly haven't lead to an uptick in convictions, as some had desired.

The point about gun cameras is well taken, also.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby willbird » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:45 am

Werz wrote:
willbird wrote:I'm uncaring whether you buy it or not :-). I'm not expecting them to surrender "reasonable safety", I'm just being open minded about them being held accountable legally and civilly when a gun comes out of the holster. Weeding out the Daniel Harless who have not gotten caught yet might be a very good thing for LE in general.

The tech is pretty much "there" for it to be unobtrusive and not an issue as far as that goes...so what is the real issue, having some accountability ?? An institutional inability to follow rules by an institution that enforces the following of rules ??

The technology is pretty much there for an on duty LE to be on camera/audio their whole shift, would that be a BAD thing ??

Most of the officers in my area already have personal body cameras. As soon as you mandate that officers have gun cameras, you give permission to the urban coastal elites to demand that your gun have all the clever safety devices that they can imagine, because, after all, at least the police have training, and the anti-gunners don't trust you to handle a firearm safely. Do you really want to invite that?

The SJW traditional wisdom about body cameras is already being deconstructed, just like I predicted. For every video showing an officer engaging in questionable behavior, there will be ten videos showing the people they encounter acting like little monsters. That's why the SJWs are screeching like little girls about body camera videos becoming public record; they have suddenly realized that those videos can easily become a source of embarrassment for them, their families, and their friends, even though they richly deserve that embarrassment.


I'm not sure who does have and does not have here. Still as I have said, the tech is growing by leaps and bounds to where it will simple to include. And as you say for every Harless there are probably 10,000 cases where the video helped the Officer. But WITHOUT video/audio would Harless still be on the job ?? He is still "out there" somewhere anyway.

Bill
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby JediSkipdogg » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:40 pm

carmen fovozzo wrote:OJT......
On the job training.....just like the Trades do...they hire, give them OJT, if they don't work out so be it...2 months of it should be able to tell TO's if they are officer material....expensive , yes....after academy then OJT...for 8 weeks...


Easier said than done in law enforcement. After the 6 months of academy, you get to spend 3 months on the road. That alone there is about $20,000 in training expenses for the officer and the trainer. It's hard to kick someone loose then and also find their flaws. After all, my department has been using that process and has never really had to terminate anyone that was bad in their first 5 years. It's usually after about 10 years they go sour. So how you pick that up in 2 months I'd love to know.

willbird wrote:Where I work the solution from when I hired in until just recently was to ONLY hire people through a temp agency. Depending on their need for people some went "full time"....which oddly enough was known as "getting your papers"...in 90 days, and as need for people slowed down it eventually went 9-12 mos...and maybe even as long as 14 mos in some cases.

During that time pretty much ONE instance of being less than adult and they showed you the door.

Also attendance policy was fairly strict for temps too.

That process weeded out a LOT of people....however a fair number "got their papers" to be hired full time, and FAILED the pre employment drug screen, or what they gave the temp agency to prove they had HSD/GED turned out to be fraudulent (in at least one case anyway).

The job market has tightened up and now they finally had to go to direct hire...so the HR folks actually have to check background and do interviews, and I'd expect the washout rate to rise. But plain and simple nobody is willing to work for temp agency unless that HAVE to.

Bill


You really want to go temp agency law enforcement? Around here ALOT of the temp agencies aren't all the greatest. Also, with civil service it's kind of pointless to go temp route. Civil service squashes and bunch but also controls a bunch of issues.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby Werz » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:45 pm

bignflnut wrote:Body cams certainly haven't lead to an uptick in convictions, as some had desired.

I would be interested in seeing your support for that assertion. I can say with certainty that they have contributed to guilty pleas once defendants have an opportunity to see them.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby M-Quigley » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:35 pm

willbird wrote:I'm not sure who does have and does not have here. Still as I have said, the tech is growing by leaps and bounds to where it will simple to include. And as you say for every Harless there are probably 10,000 cases where the video helped the Officer. But WITHOUT video/audio would Harless still be on the job ?? He is still "out there" somewhere anyway.
Bill


It's not situations like Harless. I recall back at the time of the SC shooting (Walter Scott) that the initial comment reported by the police chief after the shooting was that it appeared the officer was fully justified. This was before the chief saw the cell phone video. Granted, it's possible the officer could've been charged and convicted anyway, but the video certainly made a difference.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby carmen fovozzo » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:12 pm

16 weeks in a Academy is average...some go to 21. A lot of officers do the Academy on there own, it cost them not the PD..

There are quite a few of them floating around hoping to get hired on a department...they have taken CS tests and don't place high...maybe the first 5 with the hightest score get hired...so number 6 thru 50 are still looking for a job..

BEsides..I've heard some of the questions on the tests...best way I can describe it is rediculous..yeah I know , there's a reason for the question...
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby rimfireOH » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:52 pm

Javelin Man wrote:You need to shoot a nice TT-30 with a Tokarev round to really illuminate the area. :shock:

Yeah, that's fun, it is.
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby willbird » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:14 pm

JediSkipdogg wrote:
carmen fovozzo wrote:OJT......
On the job training.....just like the Trades do...they hire, give them OJT, if they don't work out so be it...2 months of it should be able to tell TO's if they are officer material....expensive , yes....after academy then OJT...for 8 weeks...


Easier said than done in law enforcement. After the 6 months of academy, you get to spend 3 months on the road. That alone there is about $20,000 in training expenses for the officer and the trainer. It's hard to kick someone loose then and also find their flaws. After all, my department has been using that process and has never really had to terminate anyone that was bad in their first 5 years. It's usually after about 10 years they go sour. So how you pick that up in 2 months I'd love to know.

willbird wrote:Where I work the solution from when I hired in until just recently was to ONLY hire people through a temp agency. Depending on their need for people some went "full time"....which oddly enough was known as "getting your papers"...in 90 days, and as need for people slowed down it eventually went 9-12 mos...and maybe even as long as 14 mos in some cases.

During that time pretty much ONE instance of being less than adult and they showed you the door.

Also attendance policy was fairly strict for temps too.

That process weeded out a LOT of people....however a fair number "got their papers" to be hired full time, and FAILED the pre employment drug screen, or what they gave the temp agency to prove they had HSD/GED turned out to be fraudulent (in at least one case anyway).

The job market has tightened up and now they finally had to go to direct hire...so the HR folks actually have to check background and do interviews, and I'd expect the washout rate to rise. But plain and simple nobody is willing to work for temp agency unless that HAVE to.

Bill


You really want to go temp agency law enforcement? Around here ALOT of the temp agencies aren't all the greatest. Also, with civil service it's kind of pointless to go temp route. Civil service squashes and bunch but also controls a bunch of issues.


Naa not temp agency...but not "juiced in union member almost impossible to fire" either ;-).
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Re: Cops getting gun cameras?

Postby M-Quigley » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:12 pm

Chuck wrote:
willbird wrote:I like gun mounted lights esp for in home stuff, just because it is there does not mean it is your only option, but it is always there :-)


I have neither rail lights nor lasers
I used to, but I found the laser to be unreliable and the light went against training for my situation. The only time I would need one would be clearing my own house and that would mean pointing my gun before I knew my target. I don't have qualified immunity and even if I did, I wouldn't want to point at a good guy before I knew what was what.


Although I bought an inexpensive handgun light mainly for testing purposes, and it worked great when I tested it, (on a 9mm) I don't currently have it attached. I'm not opposed to actually using it as strictly an in house gun, because if I'm checking out something at night in my own house, I'm not going to pull the trigger either accidentally or intentionally without ID'ing the person. As far as offending or scaring a good guy, the chances of a good guy/gal being in my house uninvited at night are pretty low.
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