Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

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Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby techmike » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:26 am

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby bignflnut » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:45 pm

Chairman Goodlatte: The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads, “a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” In District of Columbia v. Heller, the United States Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense. Further, the Court concluded that the Second Amendment “guarantee[s] the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation” and that “central to” this right is “the inherent right of self-defense.” Finally, in McDonald v. City of Chicago, the Supreme Court ruled that the right of an individual to “keep and bear arms” as protected under the Second Amendment is incorporated by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment against the states.

H.R. 38, the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act, would ensure these time-honored rights extend to all law-abiding Americans.


Happy to be wrong about this, but isn't carry a PERMISSION given by the states as opposed to a Right being excluded from government effect? So , we seem to be mixing the legal status of carry to begin the statement...

H.R. 38 maintains the right of each state to determine permitting requirements but allows citizens who meet the qualifications for concealed carry in their home states to carry in any state they may be travelling in as long as they follow the local concealed carry laws.

State Right to permit carry, not personal RKBA. Thanks for clearing that up. Also, if California or NY decide to not have carry laws, what is the traveler to do, aside from being well versed in every State's laws and enforcement practices?

How muddled and confused the situation becomes when we stray from simple RKBA and go into all the various exemptions, notifications, etc that the State is allowed to carve into the "law".

Finally, I want people to remember that this bill will not arm criminals. If someone is a criminal who is prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm, nothing in this bill would allow that person to purchase or possess a firearm, let alone carry one in a concealed fashion. That is currently illegal and will remain illegal under this bill. I strongly believe the way to combat gun violence is not to infringe the rights of law-abiding citizens, but to enforce the laws against criminals. This bill is about the simple proposition that law abiding Americans should be able to exercise their right to self-defense even when they cross out of their state’s borders. That is their Constitutional right.
It's no wonder people confuse carry with RKBA, as even the chair of this committee can't keep carry in its proper lane for more than 5 sentences. Relying on NICS, which the Air Force most recently demonstrated to be an abject failure, should not sway the pro or the anti in this instance.

=======================
That said, I'm all for carry being a Right that needs not regulation by the state, nor the feds....but the simple submission of HB 38 defies the notion that anyone is attempting to uphold the Rights of the People. Good try, Mr. Chairman

BearingArms says this is the "best we can get", though, so, why not be in favor of the pragmatic House Bill being stopped by a RINO infested Senate, just like all of the Obamacare Repeals?
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby M-Quigley » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:16 pm

bignflnut wrote: Also, if California or NY decide to not have carry laws, what is the traveler to do, aside from being well versed in every State's laws and enforcement practices?


To do that would adversely affect the elite in those state, including many liberal anti gun Dem's. :roll:
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby High Power » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:44 pm

What is interesting is that a severability clause was inserted into the bill. It reads:

SEVERABILITY.—Notwithstanding any other pro-vision of this Act, if any provision of this section, or any amendment made by this section, or the application of such provision or amendment to any person or circumstance is held to be unconstitutional, this section and amendments made by this section and the application of such provision or amendment to other persons or circumstances shall not be affected thereby.


Here is the entire bill: https://judiciary.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/HR-38-ANS.pdf
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby djthomas » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:54 pm

High Power wrote:What is interesting is that a severability clause was inserted into the bill. It reads:

That's standard boilerplate language for just about every bill introduced.

What will be interesting though is if this does become law and NY, CA, MD, NJ sue on constitutional grounds they will imperil LEOSA as well, because even with the severability clause the mechanism by which Congress is preempting state/local law (i.e. firearm has been in interstate commerce) is identical. The only thing that is different is the class of persons it applies to and the type of documentation they need to have.

Not that NY, CA, MD, and NJ would necessarily care but it would be very interesting to see which side of the issue the various law enforcement advocacy groups line up on. Would the police unions in NY/NJ take kindly to their AG risking a privilege that they hold so dear? Kind of like how DC didn't appeal their concealed carry suit because if SCOTUS took it up and they lost again MD would have lost too.

This whole thing is going to be fascinating to watch. I'm confident it will pass the House, but how in the heck do you get even close to 60 votes in the Senate? My theory is that it will be tied to the fix NIC bill, a bump stock ban will be added and the provision for constitutional carry state residents will be dropped. Might even stipulate some minimum standards for a permit to be recognized and have the AG publish a list of acceptable states, kind of like how they do for Brady alternatives. Perhaps even some kind of a requirement to do background checks at gun shows.

It was hysterical to listen to the rep from New York complain about how they'd have to accept licenses from states with almost no standards. Never mind that in New York the only standard is who you can bribe unless you live upstate. No training is required.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby High Power » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:31 pm

I know that this is a single issue forum and my comments may raise the ire of some readers. With that said, I'm merely raising these other issues to point out the fallacy with the liberal arguments against this legislation.

The liberals have been telling us for years that states which didn't permit same-sex marriage had to recognize a same-sex union from another sate just like they do driver's licenses and heterosexual marriages.

But now that the CHL holders want their licenses recognized in other states (just like driver's licenses and same-sex marriages) the liberals want to raise the "states rights" flag to shoot down this legislation. Yet whenever the conservatives have raised the issue of states rights the liberals want argue the supremacy of the federal government.

Does the legislation passed by states like Montana, Idaho, Kansas, Tennessee, Alaska, Wyoming, South Dakota and Arizona come to mind? In various degrees, each of these states have passed laws which either nullify or restrict enforcement of Federal firearm legislation.

When the legislators were arguing for "states rights" to bolster their arguments for 10th amendment restrictions on Federal laws the liberals told us they were crazy and that there was no such thing as "states rights."

They can't apply a standard to concealed carry license recognition across state lines that is any different than the argument for same-sex marriages that they've been screaming about for years.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby djthomas » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:36 pm

You're right of course. Republicans and Democrats have been running hot and cold on states' rights when it suits their fancy for decades. As I've gotten older I've become a bit more pragmatic on the whole thing. The idea that our states are sovereign and generally free from federal interference has been reduced to nothing more than a legal fiction. It shouldn't be that way but it is. It's not like if the Republicans would go "oh my gosh, you're right. We shouldn't be infringing on the states, let's withdraw this" the Democrats would say the same thing on one of their causes. No, they'd pocket the victory and continue to move towards nationalized whatever it is they want.

At the same time if the Supreme Court were to suddenly restore the tenth amendment to what it is really supposed to mean I wouldn't shed a tear over the chaos it would cause at the federal level including the loss of jobs for hundreds of thousands of people working for this that or the other federal agency.

As an aside, drivers license recognition is a big of an enigma and when it comes to these kinds of debates. There's no federal law requiring states to recognize licenses from other states. They've all decided to do it on their own. In theory that's how it should happen with CHLs but the feds have already mucked that up with stupid stuff like the GFSZA that technically (though not practically) make CHL reciprocity a dead letter. Imagine if there was a federal law that said you could only drive on an interstate highway if you had a license issued by the state in which the highway is located? That would kind of make the fact that OH recognizes your MI license useless, even if the federal law was almost never enforced.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby bignflnut » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:09 am

What happens in permit-less Constitutional Carry States? I assume they have some law currently on the books that grants reciprocity to non-residents, like HR 38 would grant? Or not so much?
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby WY_Not » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:14 am

Basically the same thing that happens now. If you are in one of those states and want to carry in another state then you have to get your home state permit. As far as I know, all the ones that recognize constitutional/permitless carry still offer a permit for their residents to use while out of state.

bignflnut wrote:What happens in permit-less Constitutional Carry States? I assume they have some law currently on the books that grants reciprocity to non-residents, like HR 38 would grant? Or not so much?
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby JustaShooter » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:35 pm

WY_Not wrote:
bignflnut wrote:What happens in permit-less Constitutional Carry States? I assume they have some law currently on the books that grants reciprocity to non-residents, like HR 38 would grant? Or not so much?

Basically the same thing that happens now. If you are in one of those states and want to carry in another state then you have to get your home state permit. As far as I know, all the ones that recognize constitutional/permitless carry still offer a permit for their residents to use while out of state.

Not so. HR 38 covers those residents of permitless-carry states just like it does for those with a permit:

Ҥ 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

“(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

“(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or

“(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby WY_Not » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:31 pm

Very interesting. And rather surprising that they would put even that much thought into the details. I was just taking a WAG based on how reciprocity currently works between states that honor each other.

JustaShooter wrote:
WY_Not wrote:
bignflnut wrote:What happens in permit-less Constitutional Carry States? I assume they have some law currently on the books that grants reciprocity to non-residents, like HR 38 would grant? Or not so much?

Basically the same thing that happens now. If you are in one of those states and want to carry in another state then you have to get your home state permit. As far as I know, all the ones that recognize constitutional/permitless carry still offer a permit for their residents to use while out of state.

Not so. HR 38 covers those residents of permitless-carry states just like it does for those with a permit:

Ҥ 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

“(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

“(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or

“(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby techmike » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:18 pm

WY_Not wrote:Very interesting. And rather surprising that they would put even that much thought into the details. I was just taking a WAG based on how reciprocity currently works between states that honor each other.


I am guessing that most if not all of this was crafted by the NRA/ILA.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby schmieg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:48 pm

WY_Not wrote:Very interesting. And rather surprising that they would put even that much thought into the details. I was just taking a WAG based on how reciprocity currently works between states that honor each other.

Possibly a futile effort to get Bernie Sanders on board which he probably would have been prior to last year's election when he had to switch a pro-gun position to an anti-gun one.
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby AlanM » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:03 pm

Here in Virginia we've got a Democrat Congress critter, Senator Mark Warner (D-Va), that is an idiot studying to be a moron.
(apologies to morons everywhere).
This fool has stated that he's against national reciprocity which obviously means he knows NOTHING about the subject.
As of 1 July, 2016 Virginia has a state law recognizing CHLs from EVERY other state in the union.

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Reciprocity.shtm

Need I say more?

EDIT: http://www.newsweek.com/senator-mark-warners-opposition-concealed-carry-reciprocity-and-why-it-matters-594776
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Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act

Postby techmike » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:36 pm

There are rumors (so far unverified) that when HR38 passes the house and is sent to the Senate, Chucky and DiFi are going to add the NICS Fix bill to it. That would be sucky.
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