NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby schmieg » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:24 pm

Imcrazy wrote:Full auto is at least controllable and well thought out... After seeing the negative impact of reckless shooting and how a few bullets leaving a range can destroy a shooting range I don't think it's right for the average Joe to have full auto and I think bump stocks should be illegal they're reckless... Full auto should be easier to obtain but, should still have additional licensing and require some type of qualification and class room instruction...

If you think full auto is controllable, pick up a BAR and try it on auto.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:26 pm

Ole_grizzly wrote:
Ole_grizzly wrote:
Chuck wrote:I am disappointed in the knee jerk reaction of banning something just because someone did something bad.
The antis know that bump fire is possible by a variety of means, belt loops and rubber bands are only a couple.
Their goal is to ban the entire AR platform, as they did once before.
They are on record as hoping that banning bump stocks is only the beginning of the slippery slope towards achieving that goal.
Remember Fast and Furious? They wanted a massacre then too, for the same purpose

Why would any freedom loving American support them in their quest?

I would really appreciate an answer to this part, as I see allowing their stupid little accessory ban as the beginning of rowing the boat upstream when I've can't even get everyone to row together downstream.


Here's my answer in the best way I know how. By being against everything 100% of the time, we will never reach people that are moderate on the issue. To most of the country, and I'd say a healthy majority of liberals, they see absolutely no reason that anyone needs to own multiple firearms, carry them outside the home, own weapons that look scary, have access to so-called armor piercing ammunition, have big magazines, have more than 20 rounds of any ammo, etc. Even people I know that I can talk to about owning firearms have come over, I've shown them my Rock River LAR-8, what a 308 round looks like, and some are physically upset that these can be privately owned. However, in all the instances I just named, all of those are worth fighting for, there are valid reasons if someone would just think them through for a few minutes why there's a justification to be had. However, there simply is none for a bump stock. In my opinion, by coming out against this for a future reason of never allowing a "creep" just is foolish, as our side has proven time and time again, even with a democratic president and senate (beginning of Obama's term) that we won't lose the fights that matter most. We don't need to make a stand on crap accessories when the negatives of making us look crazy outweigh some future possibility of opening the door a crack.


This is going to sound offensive, so I'll apologize in advance. I'm sorry you see things the way you do.
To me,,,, the gist of your paragraph above is that you think we should throw the antis a bone because they lose so much and you want it to be bump stocks because that won't affect you, personally.
You seem to think that doing this will buy their support for something in the future,
What?



Ole_grizzly wrote:
Chuck wrote: I don't believe that the NRA is making a "strategic move" by calling for more ATF intervention; I think they're screwing up.

- We can agree to disagree. Fighting for an innocuous accessory that serves absolutely no purpose no matter your opinion of the second amendment in the name of fighting incrementalization without realizing our current political climate is beyond my understanding. We have the entire media against our opinions and rights. The NRA is simply giving an out to republican legislators in contested districts that can't remain on the far right of gun control when mass shootings continue to occur, and low information voters who can't and won't think for themselves decide their contest. Being against every possible gun control regulation is self defeating, and this seems like an easy compromise. This does not preclude a future fight against legitimate attempts, it gives us a leg to stand on that we're not totally against everything just because. Your position (and apparently OFCC's) does not allow for that discussion, and it's severely disappointing.

Republicans control EVERYTHING!!
WHY DO THEY NEED AN "OUT"??


They control everything? They have a slim majority in the senate, everyone is not caucusing together on what was supposed to be solid conservative issues such as health care, and to call our current president a republican that controls anything is a stretch. I agree that the time is now to get national reciprocity, and more federal level legal judgements, as the situation is unlikely to improve, but our own governor doesn't agree with the state republicans on most things, and most people in congress can't stand trump. To think we're united and things would be smooth sailing legislatively, and in turn getting the american people to understand and agree, is also a stretch.


Not caucusing together is their problem. Freedom works every time it's tried, as does conservatism. The country is ready, the time is now, and the problem is boys who have run for office making promises are now afraid to fulfill them.



Ole_grizzly wrote:
Chuck wrote:They should pass reciprocity as a single item bill, and the hearing protection act as another
They should grow some balls
The time is perfect


Agree, but the hearing protection act is something I'm not interested in at all as I'm not a hunter, and many firearms enthusiasts are not either, and in this climate putting any weight behind a narrow scope that doesn't really advance actual rights or help us in the defense of our families and loved ones is a waste of time and opportunity.


This is the total gist of your post.
You're not interested in gun rights infringements unless they affect you directly. You don't care that my ears maybe wouldn't be ringing right now if suppressors were legal all my life. You don't care if someone else's chosen method of fire is outlawed because you don't shoot that way.


Can you give me any good, sound logical reasons why a bump stock should be banned?
Other than to appease the antis and make ourselves appear "reasonable"?
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:35 pm

Imcrazy wrote: I think bump stocks should be illegal they're reckless...


Do you want this illegal too?
Why or why not?

https://youtu.be/AlnglSfDzx0
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby schmieg » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:10 pm

Chuck wrote:
Ole_grizzly wrote:
Here's my answer in the best way I know how. By being against everything 100% of the time, we will never reach people that are moderate on the issue. To most of the country, and I'd say a healthy majority of liberals, they see absolutely no reason that anyone needs to own multiple firearms, carry them outside the home, own weapons that look scary, have access to so-called armor piercing ammunition, have big magazines, have more than 20 rounds of any ammo, etc. Even people I know that I can talk to about owning firearms have come over, I've shown them my Rock River LAR-8, what a 308 round looks like, and some are physically upset that these can be privately owned. However, in all the instances I just named, all of those are worth fighting for, there are valid reasons if someone would just think them through for a few minutes why there's a justification to be had. However, there simply is none for a bump stock. In my opinion, by coming out against this for a future reason of never allowing a "creep" just is foolish, as our side has proven time and time again, even with a democratic president and senate (beginning of Obama's term) that we won't lose the fights that matter most. We don't need to make a stand on crap accessories when the negatives of making us look crazy outweigh some future possibility of opening the door a crack.


This is going to sound offensive, so I'll apologize in advance. I'm sorry you see things the way you do.
To me,,,, the gist of your paragraph above is that you think we should throw the antis a bone because they lose so much and you want it to be bump stocks because that won't affect you, personally.
You seem to think that doing this will buy their support for something in the future,
What?

?

I don't think he's saying that at all. First off, looking at the current state of affairs, I think we all know bump stocks have a limited future lifespan unless something drastically changes. Let's accept that as a given for this discussion. What he is saying is that there are a lot of people out there that don't have a dog in this fight, but they generally are against more onerous gun control law. However, most of those people will probably support a ban on bump stocks at this point in time because (a) they were just used in the worst mass shooting in US history (unless you go back to the 19th century when the goal was to wipe out the native population), (b) they feel something needs to be done and the antis have the floor at the moment and are offering a feel good solution, and (c) they don't see much practical use for the things other than mass shootings. The first reason is a given and there's nothing we can do about that. We have no feel good solution to offer in the second category, just cold, hard facts showing that the "fix" is illusory which won't carry much emotional impact. We might be able to emphasized the entertainment value of the items, but, again, I don't think that will carry much water here.

However, those people who don't have a dog in the fight who will probably be against us in this instance are people who will probably trend back to our side in the future if they aren't driven away. There is some merit to that argument, especially when we are in an almost guaranteed losing position on this. I can accept the loss of bump stocks, though I personally oppose it, if we can prevent further incursions in other areas by the antis. As I've said previously, politics is the art of the possible and, in this situation, I don't think salvaging bump stocks is high on the possibility scale. Standing on principle is fine unless doing it alienates those you need to accomplish your long term goals that are based on that principle. Sometimes, you just have to stand there and take the hit and hopefully roll with it so you can deliver the uppercut later.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Mustang380gal » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:31 am

I dunno, schmieg, he thinks repealing notification is a waste of time because it is only a once a year event.

I don’t care if bump fire or full auto stuff apply to me now or not. If someone can afford them and uses them properly, why is it my business what firearm or accessory they have? If they misuse it, then go after the act of misusing it, not the object they used.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:11 am



I don't think he's saying that at all. First off, looking at the current state of affairs, I think we all know bump stocks have a limited future lifespan unless something drastically changes. Let's accept that as a given for this discussion. What he is saying is that there are a lot of people out there that don't have a dog in this fight, but they generally are against more onerous gun control law. However, most of those people will probably support a ban on bump stocks at this point in time because (a) they were just used in the worst mass shooting in US history (unless you go back to the 19th century when the goal was to wipe out the native population), (b) they feel something needs to be done and the antis have the floor at the moment and are offering a feel good solution, and (c) they don't see much practical use for the things other than mass shootings. The first reason is a given and there's nothing we can do about that. We have no feel good solution to offer in the second category, just cold, hard facts showing that the "fix" is illusory which won't carry much emotional impact. We might be able to emphasized the entertainment value of the items, but, again, I don't think that will carry much water here.

However, those people who don't have a dog in the fight who will probably be against us in this instance are people who will probably trend back to our side in the future if they aren't driven away. There is some merit to that argument, especially when we are in an almost guaranteed losing position on this. I can accept the loss of bump stocks, though I personally oppose it, if we can prevent further incursions in other areas by the antis. As I've said previously, politics is the art of the possible and, in this situation, I don't think salvaging bump stocks is high on the possibility scale. Standing on principle is fine unless doing it alienates those you need to accomplish your long term goals that are based on that principle. Sometimes, you just have to stand there and take the hit and hopefully roll with it so you can deliver the uppercut later.


How does that square with your signature line, Mike?
Ain't activism fun?

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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:41 am

Once we admit that “no one needs one, so it’s ok to ban them” we admit that there is a problem with that rate of fire.
Once we admit that we have a problem with law abiding citizens being able to use that rate of fire, we lose all credibility when they point out other you tubes that show the same rate of fire as a reason to ban the entire AR platform.

How are you (we) going to argue against an Ar ban when you (we) are already on record as saying no one should be permitted that rate of fire?

How do you guys who want this banned think the next move is going to play out?
Ain't activism fun?

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"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby WhyNot » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:43 am

Bumpstock or not, banning the REST of Feinsteins stuff i.e. rapid triggers or even the lowly $10 spring set. I will not condone , help, assist, or further .001% of the leftist's agenda. Which is total firearms ban. And by starting to spell the word 'agree', they are off to the races.

''How do you guys who want this banned think the next move is going to play out?''

I can just about gaurantee the Left already has 3-4, 5 layers of rebuttals and other legislation already setting on someone's desk. Only needs implemented. I can gaurantee they've already got court challenges drafted for what they don't think they will get outright via so-called ''negotiations'' with republicans.
Thinking otherwise with as many things they've said publicly, and in legal session, past legal backgrounds bans/laws is pure fallacy and whimsical fantasy thinking.

Oh BTW, NO! they can't have your bump stock :wink: is my response! I don't need it (see sig line :) )
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby bignflnut » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:53 am

Chuck wrote:Once we admit that “no one needs one, so it’s ok to ban them” we admit that there is a problem with that rate of fire.
Once we admit that we have a problem with law abiding citizens being able to use that rate of fire, we lose all credibility when they point out other you tubes that show the same rate of fire as a reason to ban the entire AR platform.



Here is Uncle Jerry (on the Rt) vs a Bump Stock (Lt)
To bolster Chucks point, and suggest that a full auto ban needs to be lifted.

And hey, even Salon says gun control is racist (tough to follow the argument, though)

Then there's the historical racism of gun control:

Guns have historically protected Americans from white supremacists, just as gun control has historically protected white supremacists from the Americans they terrorize.

One month after the Confederate surrender in 1865, Frederick Douglass urged federal action to stop state and local infringement of the right to arms. Until this was accomplished, Douglass argued, “the work of the abolitionists is not finished.”

Indeed, it was not. As the Special Report of the Paris Anti-Slavery Conference of 1867 found, freedmen in some southern states “were forbidden to own or bear firearms, and thus were rendered defenseless against assault.” Thus, white supremacists could continue to control freedmen through threat of violence.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby schmieg » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:13 am

Chuck wrote:


I don't think he's saying that at all. First off, looking at the current state of affairs, I think we all know bump stocks have a limited future lifespan unless something drastically changes. Let's accept that as a given for this discussion. What he is saying is that there are a lot of people out there that don't have a dog in this fight, but they generally are against more onerous gun control law. However, most of those people will probably support a ban on bump stocks at this point in time because (a) they were just used in the worst mass shooting in US history (unless you go back to the 19th century when the goal was to wipe out the native population), (b) they feel something needs to be done and the antis have the floor at the moment and are offering a feel good solution, and (c) they don't see much practical use for the things other than mass shootings. The first reason is a given and there's nothing we can do about that. We have no feel good solution to offer in the second category, just cold, hard facts showing that the "fix" is illusory which won't carry much emotional impact. We might be able to emphasized the entertainment value of the items, but, again, I don't think that will carry much water here.

However, those people who don't have a dog in the fight who will probably be against us in this instance are people who will probably trend back to our side in the future if they aren't driven away. There is some merit to that argument, especially when we are in an almost guaranteed losing position on this. I can accept the loss of bump stocks, though I personally oppose it, if we can prevent further incursions in other areas by the antis. As I've said previously, politics is the art of the possible and, in this situation, I don't think salvaging bump stocks is high on the possibility scale. Standing on principle is fine unless doing it alienates those you need to accomplish your long term goals that are based on that principle. Sometimes, you just have to stand there and take the hit and hopefully roll with it so you can deliver the uppercut later.


How does that square with your signature line, Mike?

Ayn Rand wasn't above using the political system when it was accessible. What do you do when you play chess? Stand and say your king is the best and you won't engage or do you use strategy to get your pieces in position? Politics is more like chess. I despise it, but I can't avoid it - it's there and it's going to affect you whether you agree with it or not.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby schmieg » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:14 am

Mustang380gal wrote:I dunno, schmieg, he thinks repealing notification is a waste of time because it is only a once a year event.

I don’t care if bump fire or full auto stuff apply to me now or not. If someone can afford them and uses them properly, why is it my business what firearm or accessory they have? If they misuse it, then go after the act of misusing it, not the object they used.

Notice that I only quoted a portion of the message.

No, he has a tunnel vision view of everything else IMHO.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am

schmieg wrote:]
Ayn Rand wasn't above using the political system when it was accessible. What do you do when you play chess? Stand and say your king is the best and you won't engage or do you use strategy to get your pieces in position? Politics is more like chess. I despise it, but I can't avoid it - it's there and it's going to affect you whether you agree with it or not.



What pieces are we getting into position by agreeing that a rapid rate of fire should be outlawed?
How will we checkmate by if we abandon reason and logic as a tactic?
Ain't activism fun?

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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby schmieg » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:15 pm

Chuck wrote:
schmieg wrote:]
Ayn Rand wasn't above using the political system when it was accessible. What do you do when you play chess? Stand and say your king is the best and you won't engage or do you use strategy to get your pieces in position? Politics is more like chess. I despise it, but I can't avoid it - it's there and it's going to affect you whether you agree with it or not.



What pieces are we getting into position by agreeing that a rapid rate of fire should be outlawed?
How will we checkmate by if we abandon reason and logic as a tactic?

We don't have to agree; we just have to be careful not to disagree in an obnoxious manner or just bite our collective tongues and stand mute. As the old saying goes, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Fighting losing battles is great for principle, but often lousy for strategy. Burning political capital on something that we cannot win to satisfy principle is equivalent to defending a position with a squad of men against a battalion of opponents. It makes for good theater, but not good stategy unless you can clearly see that sacrificing them will delay the enemy for a sufficient time for you to accomplish another strategic goal. I don't see that here.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:36 pm

And again I ask, how does capitulating on bump stocks delay anything?
From where I sit it encourages the opposition to try even more illogical arguments, and with reason, if after all, it works for them.

And if that happens, how do we counter them without being hypocritical ourselves?

I will agree about being obnoxious. And I certainly hope my friends like you will tell me if I become so.
But that doesn’t change the argument
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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby curmudgeon3 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:56 pm

What's next, ban belt loops ?
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