NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Mustang380gal » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:33 pm

Imcrazy wrote:
Chuck wrote:Once we admit that “no one needs one, so it’s ok to ban them” we admit that there is a problem with that rate of fire.
Once we admit that we have a problem with law abiding citizens being able to use that rate of fire, we lose all credibility when they point out other you tubes that show the same rate of fire as a reason to ban the entire AR platform.

How are you (we) going to argue against an Ar ban when you (we) are already on record as saying no one should be permitted that rate of fire?

How do you guys who want this banned think the next move is going to play out?


Once you admit they're dangerous and reckless they should be off the streets for that reason, no one is saying it's because we don't need them... I don't need my concealed carry license or pistols that I carry, odd's are I will never need to defend myself.

The uncontrollable nature of the rate of fire is dangerous, the correlation between restricting full auto / bump stocks and a ban of semi auto firearms, is like saying speed limits on our roads will lead to outlawing cars with v8 motors. I think it will play out just like the full auto restrictions we already have in place and it will have zero effect on ownership of legitimate defensive tools like semi auto AR-15's etc... It's like saying that because you need a CDL to drive an 18 wheeler we're all going to need CDL's to drive 1/2 ton pickups...


Fireworks are dangerous, and people use them recklessly, too. Yet Ohio is considering making them legal.

Adults are supposed to be responsible enough to know risk vs. benefit, and act accordingly. If they use things irresponsibly, then they should face the consequences of the action.

How does it end, if we end up with the .gov as an all-wise parent, preventing us access to reckless and dangerous things? No one can drive more than 35 mph? Ban mountain climbing? Prohibit camping in bear country? No more bicycles or motorcycles? No more little red sports car that go really fast? Amish can't drive black buggies anymore; they need to be neon yellow? Maybe we should try prohibition again, since drinking can be associated with people doing reckless and dangerous things, not to mention the fights that occur.

Maybe we should ban Red Rider BB guns, because we'll shoot our eyes out.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby JustaShooter » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:16 pm

Imcrazy wrote:Once you admit they're dangerous and reckless they should be off the streets for that reason,

That's just it, you make the claim they are "dangerous and reckless" and therefore should be banned. I don't concede the point. An AR with a bump stock is no more dangerous than one without, and is no more reckless than one without. Please, tell me what it is that makes you think they are more dangerous and more reckless?
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby M-Quigley » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:36 pm

Knob creek in Kentucky holds a full auto event every spring and fall. It's been a while, but the last one I observed, there was bump firing of semi auto AK's (not with a bump fire stock) at the back range. It didn't appear any more reckless or dangerous than the people there with actual legal full auto firearms. There were at least hundreds of people there either shooting real full auto or some simulation of it, and thousands of spectators that weekend. I didn't observe or hear of any injuries that resulted from gun use that weekend.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby steves 50de » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:56 pm

Imcrazy wrote:
Chuck wrote:Once we admit that “no one needs one, so it’s ok to ban them” we admit that there is a problem with that rate of fire.
Once we admit that we have a problem with law abiding citizens being able to use that rate of fire, we lose all credibility when they point out other you tubes that show the same rate of fire as a reason to ban the entire AR platform.

How are you (we) going to argue against an Ar ban when you (we) are already on record as saying no one should be permitted that rate of fire?

How do you guys who want this banned think the next move is going to play out?


Once you admit they're dangerous and reckless they should be off the streets for that reason, no one is saying it's because we don't need them... I don't need my concealed carry license or pistols that I carry, odd's are I will never need to defend myself.

The uncontrollable nature of the rate of fire is dangerous, the correlation between restricting full auto / bump stocks and a ban of semi auto firearms, is like saying speed limits on our roads will lead to outlawing cars with v8 motors. I think it will play out just like the full auto restrictions we already have in place and it will have zero effect on ownership of legitimate defensive tools like semi auto AR-15's etc... It's like saying that because you need a CDL to drive an 18 wheeler we're all going to need CDL's to drive 1/2 ton pickups...

Give one inch they will take a mile. At the end of that mile they want your AR-15
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:04 pm

Imcrazy wrote:You need to realize that being on the 'same side' of things is more broad than you're seeing it as.... Life ain't that black and white, which makes it really hard but, great leaders that are good at uniting people can realize how to live in the grey area's and understand that life just isn't black and white. Just because I am not against banning full auto or bumfire stocks or other 'toys' doesn't mean we can't be united on correcting the issue of notification in Ohio.... You have to let people be different, disagree with them on certain issues and let those go by the wayside and focus on what you want to accomplish in common.


Firstly, I neither claim, nor aspire, to be a "great leader"

Secondly, what are doing to for notification repeal?
Sending money to the people who want failure to notify to remain a crime?
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Imcrazy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:10 pm

I give up, we'll all just have to agree to disagree.......
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:11 pm

Imcrazy wrote:
Once you admit they're dangerous and reckless they should be off the streets for that reason, no one is saying it's because we don't need them... I don't need my concealed carry license or pistols that I carry, odd's are I will never need to defend myself.


What do you propose about shoulder mount bump firing?
Belt loop bump firing?
Rubber bands?

This is not the first time I've asked this


Imcrazy wrote:It's like saying that because you need a CDL to drive an 18 wheeler we're all going to need CDL's to drive 1/2 ton pickups...


Don't be absurd.

You, yourself, claim that rate of fire is dangerous. All the antis have to do is show that rate of fire is achievable without a bump stock and we lose the whole AR platform.
They will use your own arguments.
How will you respond?
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby Chuck » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:13 pm

Imcrazy wrote:I give up, we'll all just have to agree to disagree.......


Well, you can do that if you want, or you can answer the unanswered questions I have posted
My mind is open, if we do it your way and they say the rate of fire is still too fast, so we must ban the platform, what will you say?
Ain't activism fun?

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What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby WY_Not » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:49 am

Exactly. They are inanimate objects. They can neither harm nor help. They are not inherently dangerous or reckless. Those are behaviors; behaviors carried out by INDIVIDUALS. If an INDIVIDUAL does something dangerous or reckless AND causes harm to someone else or to someone else's property then punish the INDIVIDUAL not the rest of society.

JustaShooter wrote:
Imcrazy wrote:Once you admit they're dangerous and reckless they should be off the streets for that reason,

That's just it, you make the claim they are "dangerous and reckless" and therefore should be banned. I don't concede the point. An AR with a bump stock is no more dangerous than one without, and is no more reckless than one without. Please, tell me what it is that makes you think they are more dangerous and more reckless?
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby bignflnut » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:54 am

Imcrazy wrote:You need to realize that being on the 'same side' of things is more broad than you're seeing it as.... Life ain't that black and white, which makes it really hard but, great leaders that are good at uniting people can realize how to live in the grey area's and understand that life just isn't black and white.


FWIW, I find this quote instructive: “Desperate times call for faithful men, and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.” - D Wilson

I can't think of a "great leader" who believed in, or lead effectively while espousing a grey/gray area.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby bignflnut » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:43 pm

Make no mistake, the NRA has NOT cleared the way for more regulation. If it were not for ATF's wink and nod to the manufacturer of the bump-stock, it would already be regulated under federal law. NRA has tossed it back into ATF's lap where it belongs. NRA has not agreed to any new legislation. NRA has not agreed to a ban. NRA has not agreed to anything. NRA simply insists upon enforcing existing law.

The enemies freedom and the Second Amendment are spewing hysteria from the podiums they have planted in the blood of innocent victims. These anti-Second Amendment heretics are using these victims as their stalking horse to get some new gun control legislation on the floor of the Congress.

These victims have fallen and are suffering because of the evil acts of a deranged madman who could have carried out his destruction even if bump-stocks were not available under ATF's approval. He would have found another way.

Don't blame bump-stocks, don't blame ATF, don't blame anybody but the evil people who perpetrated this crime. No law, no regulation stops those with evil in their hearts.

The frantic cries from antagonists who want to take your freedom are intended to stampede you and Congress into supporting more gun control.
But it doesn't stop there. Is it not clear to you that, just like the media, some members of the NRA Board are misinterpreting what the NRA has said?

Additionally, there are “Trojan horse members” who are deliberately misinterpreting what the NRA has said. Just like having an (R) after your name doesn't make you a conservative Republican, having an NRA membership card doesn't make you an honest member.


This was a "clarification" from Marion Hammer, NRA past president.

Oathkeepers seemed to refute the statement:

Here’s where she goes completely off the rails:

“[L]ike all good, honest, law-abiding Americans, the NRA obeys the law… NRA has called for enforcing existing law.”

So had this been at the time of the Revolution, NRA’s position would have been “Enforce existing Intolerable Acts”? And if you engage in the time-honored American tradition of civil disobedience against edicts that violate “the supreme Law of the Land,” you’re neither “good” nor “honest”?

Who are the real law-breakers here?

SNIP

As for bump stocks not being a hill to die on, it’s not about bump stocks. Think of those as the MacGuffin, as incidental as the Maltese Falcon, the Pink Panther diamond, or Peewee’s bicycle. It’s about “shall not be infringed.”

It’s about not surrendering and giving an enemy that has made no secret of its ultimate goal of total disarmament a beachhead from which to launch its next incursion. If it’s bump stocks today, what will it be tomorrow that “good, law-abiding Americans” will be told to surrender – and branded “dissidents and ‘Trojan Horses’” by NRA’s “leaders” if we object?

And when it;s too late to “vote to change the law” because NRA showed deliberate indifference to the single biggest threat against the Second Amendment by falling back on the wholly disingenuous “single issue” excuse?

It’s no accident they’ve never signaled which hill is worth dying on, if any.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby bignflnut » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:55 pm

The Illinois House on Thursday soundly rejected a ban on "bump stocks" like those the gunman used to speed up firing in this month's Las Vegas massacre, with many rural Democrats siding with Republicans in opposition to the proposed gun restriction.

State Rep. Martin Moylan's prohibition on "trigger modifications" got only 48 of the 71 votes it would have needed to pass. Fifty-four members of the Democratic-controlled House voted against it.

SNIP

Moylan's bill defined trigger modification as any after-market alteration "intended to accelerate the rate of fire of a firearm," which critics complained is virtually universal.

"Every trigger in every competitive shoot is somehow modified," said state Rep. Jerry Costello II, a Smithton Democrat whose district includes the World Shooting and Recreation Complex . Contests at the site in Sparta, which is 50 miles (80 kilometers) southeast of St. Louis, have a $24 million annual economic impact on the region.

SNIP

"You're turning law-abiding citizens into criminals," said state Rep. C.D. Davidsmeyer, a Jacksonville Republican. "Things they currently own are going to be illegal."


How are there ANY firearms competitions in Illinois?

Some Illinois rep is currently crafting a bill to require a surgery that inhibits the ligaments, tendons and muscles of finger groups to a certain speed before obtaining a Firearm ID Card because they hate increased rates of fire.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Postby bignflnut » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:39 am

DOJ going to instant replay for a closer look...

The U.S. Justice Department said on Tuesday that it is considering a possible ban on certain bump stocks, the attachments that make semiautomatic rifles fire faster and were used in the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history in Las Vegas in October.

The Las Vegas gunman’s use of bump stock to allow his weapons to fire like fully automatic machine guns, killing 58 people and wounding hundreds, has led to rare bipartisan agreement in Congress on the need to review whether they should be banned.

“Possessing firearm parts that are used exclusively in converting a weapon into a machine gun is illegal, except for certain limited circumstances,” U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) said in a joint statement. “Today we begin the process of determining whether or not bump stocks are covered by this prohibition.


Obama Administration OKs bump stocks...and Trump may roll that back...is that the score?
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