NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by bignflnut »

Chuck wrote:
And if that happens, how do we counter them without being hypocritical ourselves?
See today's Boy Scout announcement?

This is what the sacrifices on the Altar of Compromise win you...total failure built on a foundation of hypocrisy
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by schmieg »

Chuck wrote:And again I ask, how does capitulating on bump stocks delay anything?
From where I sit it encourages the opposition to try even more illogical arguments, and with reason, if after all, it works for them.

And if that happens, how do we counter them without being hypocritical ourselves?

I will agree about being obnoxious. And I certainly hope my friends like you will tell me if I become so.
But that doesn’t change the argument
Concentrate the arguments on the other items which aren't subject to popular animosity at the moment. If you keep harping on the bump stocks, you lose credibility on the other stuff.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Cosmos »

schmieg wrote:
Chuck wrote:And again I ask, how does capitulating on bump stocks delay anything?
From where I sit it encourages the opposition to try even more illogical arguments, and with reason, if after all, it works for them.

And if that happens, how do we counter them without being hypocritical ourselves?

I will agree about being obnoxious. And I certainly hope my friends like you will tell me if I become so.
But that doesn’t change the argument
Concentrate the arguments on the other items which aren't subject to popular animosity at the moment. If you keep harping on the bump stocks, you lose credibility on the other stuff.
I have to agree with Schmieg. If our side is intractable on bump stocks, in my opinion we lose any credibility with issues we have a chance at winning. We are not going to win the argument of public opinion not to regulate bump stocks. Yes, I know any law, short of total and complete confiscation, will have zero impact on anything.

The fact is, however, without both sides getting something, the current worthless group of RINOs will not pass anything without Democrat votes. In my opinion, the best we can hope for is getting something in return like the Hearing Protection Act or national reciprocity.

Unfortunately, if the Republicans, who control all three branches of government, cannot pass what they have been promising for over seven years, I don't expect much from them. At least not until the money dries up and they get the message.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Chuck »

Very simple question here

What is the reason for banning the bump stock?

I'm getting a little bit frustrated here. Everyone wants me to give it up and no one can tell me why

I KNOW the reason everyone wants it banned
Do you?
Can you articulate it?

Anyone?
Ain't activism fun?

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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by schmieg »

Chuck wrote:Very simple question here

What is the reason for banning the bump stock?

I'm getting a little bit frustrated here. Everyone wants me to give it up and no one can tell me why

I KNOW the reason everyone wants it banned
Do you?
Can you articulate it?

Anyone?
(a) to make the sheep feel good thinking something has been done and (b) to get the foot in the door to further gun control.

But, it will be done, absent someone with a bump stocked AR stopping a mass terror attack in the meanwhile.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Chuck »

I doubt that is the reason the antis would use, but to use yours,,,, why should I, (meaning, me, you and all of OFCC), help them with that?

What does that gain us?
Where is the strategic move?
Ain't activism fun?

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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by schmieg »

Chuck wrote:I doubt that is the reason the antis would use, but to use yours,,,, why should I, (meaning, me, you and all of OFCC), help them with that?

What does that gain us?
Where is the strategic move?
Who is saying to help them? I am saying concentrate on what is not a losing argument. Unfortunately, at the moment, "not a losing argument" does not include bump stocks.
-- Mike

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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by bignflnut »

schmieg wrote:Concentrate the arguments on the other items which aren't subject to popular animosity at the moment. If you keep harping on the bump stocks, you lose credibility on the other stuff.
Currying favor with the Swamp by surrendering without gaining a thing (not that I agree with Chuck that we should surrender once we're bought off) will not help bolster fund-raising appeals, will it? Power to the People surrendered. Simply begging for the scraps from the Swamp's table.

Is this what we desire our orgs to do? White flag today in hopes of gaining something later? And why, because the media decided to report on one rifle accessory or another?
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Chuck »

WHY,,, oh WHY,,, is "not losing bump stocks" an option?
I'm telling you, heck, I'll shout it from the roof tops, yielding to hysteria without a logical reason is going to make things worse, not better.

What counter argument do we present when they tell us, "you didn't need a logical reason when you agreed to banning bump stocks"??
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by schmieg »

bignflnut wrote:
schmieg wrote:Concentrate the arguments on the other items which aren't subject to popular animosity at the moment. If you keep harping on the bump stocks, you lose credibility on the other stuff.
Currying favor with the Swamp by surrendering without gaining a thing (not that I agree with Chuck that we should surrender once we're bought off) will not help bolster fund-raising appeals, will it? Power to the People surrendered. Simply begging for the scraps from the Swamp's table.

Is this what we desire our orgs to do? White flag today in hopes of gaining something later? And why, because the media decided to report on one rifle accessory or another?
No, just live in reality.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Chuck »

bignflnut wrote: Is this what we desire our orgs to do?

I take exception to your use of the term "our orgs" unless and until I see you with a site supporter badge under your avatar
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by bignflnut »

schmieg wrote: No, just live in reality.
What reality am I in that is false?
Tell me the lay of the land, Mr. Coordinator.
Why don't you tell me how you really feel about people who espouse my point-of-view?
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Ole_grizzly »

Chuck wrote:I doubt that is the reason the antis would use, but to use yours,,,, why should I, (meaning, me, you and all of OFCC), help them with that?

What does that gain us?
Where is the strategic move?
I have asked around these past few days to a wide range of people about the NRA's decision to support bump stock bans. Most hadn't heard about it. Those that are particularly liberal weren't all that interested either way as they want an awb, as discussed over and over on this board. Those that I know that tend to vote conservative but aren't firearm owners had the type of response I was writing about earlier. Paraphrasing, the reaction was along these lines. "wow, I thought they were against all forms of gun control?" This opened the discussion to what the NRA is and isn't, and then them walking away from the conversation with thinking the nra maybe isn't all that crazy.

To me, this argument is not about appeasing the anti's, as it certainly won't. It's about opening up a discussion with people who are turned off by the hard right rhetoric of the NRA and other smaller groups, like ours. Simply stated, there is no logic to support keeping bump stocks legal on their own, as confirmed by just about everyone on this thread. There is a real threat of incrementalization, deduced correctly by you Chuck. I don't think it is inevitable, and we've proven that we can win the fights that matter.

To people that aren't single issue voters like many in the gun rights arena, they will never have thought through all the steps that you have, and we simply seem crazy and ridiculous on the surface to support keeping such a dumb inanimate object as a bump stock that contributed mightily to the worst mass shooting in our history..

Do I think supporting the ban on bump stocks will of a sudden move a tide of new supporters to us? On it's own, no. But if we come with logical arguments, show that we are willing to compromise and not be so hard set in our decisions, we may open some doors to people who don't feel as strongly as us already.

And to clear up a few other assumptions, I am not against the silencer legislation or repealing notification. I think both would be great. I think they are way below in priority to other rights that would actually help in the defense of ourselves and families, and just because it's related to firearm rights I am not going to be all gung ho about things that are convenience and choice issues, versus the fact I can't carry while dropping off mail at the post office, most places downtown cleveland, or elsewhere. If you think that's tunnel vision, I won't argue, but I don't believe in giving the same attention and support to issues I don't care as much about compared to others.

I appreciate the engagement and debate, and to state once again I value ofcc greatly, will continue to support its various agendas and try to recruit new members, and I feel we're all on the same team. We won't always agree,but you have my support.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by schmieg »

bignflnut wrote:
schmieg wrote: No, just live in reality.
What reality am I in that is false?
Tell me the lay of the land, Mr. Coordinator.
Why don't you tell me how you really feel about people who espouse my point-of-view?
It has nothing to do with other people.
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Re: NRA Calls for ATF review of bumpfire stocks

Post by Ghost »

schmieg wrote:
Chuck wrote:I doubt that is the reason the antis would use, but to use yours,,,, why should I, (meaning, me, you and all of OFCC), help them with that?

What does that gain us?
Where is the strategic move?
Who is saying to help them? I am saying concentrate on what is not a losing argument. Unfortunately, at the moment, "not a losing argument" does not include bump stocks.
Part of the reason it’s a losing argument is because the NRA folded like a cheap suit. If they hadn’t, this would’ve been a much tougher fight.

Let’s look at this from a few perspectives.

Strategy- Some people believe it’s good strategy to give in on this issue and lose bump stocks, rather than possibly lose something else. They also believe it’s a waste of the NRA’s political capital.

Why I disagree strategically- Even if I was ok with a ban on bump stocks, I’d oppose it and make the leftist fight for it. Yes, the NRA would expel political capital but so would the left. They also might lose the fight. Even if they won, it would use up some of their political capital. If they tried a full assault weapons ban, they’d be even more likely to lose and use even more political capital. See where I’m going with this? At present they are likely to get additional gun legislation, while using zero political capital. Political capital they can later use for even more gun control.

Strategy- Some people believe it’s good strategy to give in on this issue because it makes the NRA seam more reasonable to people who might be someplace in the middle of this issue.

Why I disagree strategically- The reward of a chance of getting more people to support us, is not worth the risk of losing even more gun rights by giving into the loss of bump stocks.

Logic- Many people believe that there is no logical reason to own bump stocks and that it is logical to give them up to prevent future gun restrictions.

Why I disagree logically- This assumption itself is illogical. Why? Never in the history of the United States has any gun control legislation prevented future restrictions or regulation. Never in the history of the United States has any gun control legislation led to additional gun rights. It is illogical to ignore history or expect it to be different this time. The very definition of insanity, is to continue doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

This agenda will never stop, we must be vigilant.

Just imagine if he’d been a CCW holder. What argument do you think we’d be having then?
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