NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

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SloppySutter
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NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by SloppySutter »

Hey Guys, Before I share my story, know that I am telling the 100% truth in everything I am writing. I have already contacted my Congressman and Senator in an attempt to get my Appeal processed a little bit sooner than 2 years. And while I know that my Ohio CCW that I just received on the 13th of March will allow me to bypass the NICS (assuming that is the FFL's policy), I'd like to point out that that is simply a loophole around the actual issue. The issue here? An innocent man (Me) was accused of being a criminal by the FBI when I have been nothing but a law abiding citizen. I want them to admit they were wrong, and I want an apology along with it. A man must stand by principles. Here is my story:

After taking my CCW Safety and Instruction course (as is required for a CCW license in Ohio) I set up a meeting with the Hamilton County Sheriff’s office here in Cincinnati to apply for my official CCW license. I decided to purchase the firearm I would carry exactly one week before my meeting at the Sheriff’s office. Having purchased a firearm in Kentucky before (my previous state of residence) and also knowing that had no criminal record of any kind, I was convinced that there would be no issue with me purchasing a handgun and passing the required NICS background check administered by the FBI. I bought a firearm online and had it shipped to my local gun shop where I went to pick it up and have my background check done to confirm my eligibility. I filled out the ATF 4473 form exactly as it is supposed to be and even included my SSN. To my astonishment, I was DENIED the purchase by the NICS system. As I said, I knew my record was clean as could be, and I had even purchased a firearm a year and half earlier and hadn’t gotten so much as a speeding ticket since then. Thus, this NICS denial was, without a hint of a doubt, a system error.

I immediately filed an appeal on the NICS website and asked the reason for my denial. The next day, I went to the Sheriff’s office and paid to have myself fingerprinted. I scanned these fingerprints to my computer and sent them with yet another appeal on the NICS website. I then printed off the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) form from the NICS website that allows persons to apply for a Unique Personal Identification Number (UPIN). I filled out the VAF form, attached an original fingerprint card and a copy of my driver’s license, and priority mailed all of it to the NICS Appeals office in West Virginia. Finally, I scanned all of these documents yet again and had all of them faxed to the NICS Appeals office. I made several attempts to call the NICS toll-free number, but was never able to speak to a single agent. Every time I was forwarded to a prerecorded message stating “we are no longer giving status updates on appeals” or “due to high call volumes, we are unable to take your call at this time”. In my worry, I went online and paid for 2 separate background checks on myself to confirm my innocence. As suspected, I was unable to find anything criminal associated with my name.

A week passed and I went to the Sheriff’s office for my CCW application meeting with the Sheriff Deputy. I told him of my occurrence with NICS and so he took my ID and other information and ran it in the NCIC database… he found nothing on me. He stated that “There are four people named N**** J**** with a birthdate similar to yours that are ineligible to purchase firearms. However, you aren’t on here. I’m not sure what happened, but somehow they seemed to have mixed you up with someone else.” The deputy proceeded by allowing me to scan my fingerprints into the system for an FBI+BCI criminal background check. He said all CCW applicants do this in order to be sure that their fingerprints are not associated with any crimes by the state or FBI. Since I have never had to give my fingerprints for anything other than the aforementioned NICS appeal process, I knew there WOULD NOT be any issue with me passing an FBI, BCI, or local fingerprint background check.

When I got home from work on the day of my appointment, there was a letter in the mail from the U.S. Department of Justice addressed to me. It contained the reason of my NICS denial, stating that I had been, “Convicted of a crime in any court punishable by more than one year or a misdemeanor punishable by more than two years.” Clearly this accusation was false and incorrect, as the Sheriff Deputy had confirmed earlier that day. On the last page of the letter, it stated that “NICS appeals were processed in the order from which they are received. The NICS Section’s Appeal Services Team is currently processing appeal cases and Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) cases received in August 2015.” This would mean that the EARLIEST my name can be cleared and allowed to purchase firearms would be in 18 months. However, after speaking with attorneys via live chats and free phone consultations, I've been led to believe that an 18 month expectation is quote "overly optimistic". The going rate to have this stuff overturned in under a year stands at about $2,500 in attorney fees. All that money just to prove I'm innocent.

How can a government agency legally withhold my second amendment right for 18+ months on the basis of a false accusation that other law enforcement agencies are able to debunk and validate as erroneous? This is an infringement on my rights as laid out by the U.S. Constitution and no one seems to be able to help me correct this atrocity that has cost me close to $100 in paperwork and shipping charges to prove my innocence. I am in need of all the help I can get on this issue. Does anyone know of any legislation that has or will soon address this type of fiasco in the gun control system? Does anyone know my options here as to how I can get my right to bear arms back in a reasonable amount of time?


****UPDATE ON EVENTS:
As expected, I successfully PASSED the CCW fingerprint background check and received my Ohio CCW license at the Sheriff's office yesterday. I went back to the FFL where I was denied and showed them my license. They were stunned. They couldn't understand how I had been denied on the NICS, then a week later submitted a fingerprint background check at the Sheriff's office only to pass it 3 business days later. They'd seen the reverse (someone gets their CCW, then fails the NICS after), but never the order in which it happened to me. The shop owner believed my case, but wanted to contact the local deputy that usually helped them out on these kind of issues before he tried to run my NICS again (because apparently that is only allowed with prior permission from the FBI). So he copied my ID and CCW, took my phone number, and said he would have the deputy contact the ATF and get to the bottom of this. Clearly, SOMEBODY messed up, so hopefully when the deputy calls me this Friday, I should have more answers...
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Quick question....when you fill out the 4473 at the FFL, do you include your social security number? I know it's optional, but am curious if you add it or not.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by JustaShooter »

JediSkipdogg wrote:Quick question....when you fill out the 4473 at the FFL, do you include your social security number? I know it's optional, but am curious if you add it or not.
He did on the purchase where he was denied:
SloppySutter wrote:After taking my CCW Safety and Instruction course (as is required for a CCW license in Ohio) I set up a meeting with the Hamilton County Sheriff’s office here in Cincinnati to apply for my official CCW license. I decided to purchase the firearm I would carry exactly one week before my meeting at the Sheriff’s office. Having purchased a firearm in Kentucky before (my previous state of residence) and also knowing that had no criminal record of any kind, I was convinced that there would be no issue with me purchasing a handgun and passing the required NICS background check administered by the FBI. I bought a firearm online and had it shipped to my local gun shop where I went to pick it up and have my background check done to confirm my eligibility. I filled out the ATF 4473 form exactly as it is supposed to be and even included my SSN. To my astonishment, I was DENIED the purchase by the NICS system.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by JediSkipdogg »

JustaShooter wrote:
JediSkipdogg wrote:Quick question....when you fill out the 4473 at the FFL, do you include your social security number? I know it's optional, but am curious if you add it or not.
He did on the purchase where he was denied:
SloppySutter wrote:After taking my CCW Safety and Instruction course (as is required for a CCW license in Ohio) I set up a meeting with the Hamilton County Sheriff’s office here in Cincinnati to apply for my official CCW license. I decided to purchase the firearm I would carry exactly one week before my meeting at the Sheriff’s office. Having purchased a firearm in Kentucky before (my previous state of residence) and also knowing that had no criminal record of any kind, I was convinced that there would be no issue with me purchasing a handgun and passing the required NICS background check administered by the FBI. I bought a firearm online and had it shipped to my local gun shop where I went to pick it up and have my background check done to confirm my eligibility. I filled out the ATF 4473 form exactly as it is supposed to be and even included my SSN. To my astonishment, I was DENIED the purchase by the NICS system.
Missed that part in the long story. LOL
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by SloppySutter »

Yeah, Sorry. I know the story is a little winded, It's just a little bizarre, so every detail kind of matters. I feel like I've tried everything and can't get any real help other than "hire and attorney and spend all that money because you're guilty until proven innocent". It makes me so mad I don't know what to do...
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by Brian D. »

Let's start with the obligatory greetings: WELCOME TO OFCC! I have heard of people with common names, even when they provide their SSN, being denied on a NICS check. It is infuriating to me: You provide a unique ID number that otherwise you are very discrete about giving out in general, and the same government who created that system, messes it up so badly.

My name isn't all that common, but by happenstance I found out that there's a guy with it that is a convicted federal felon, unlawful dealing in Class III firearms among other things. So, only one time did I try out not providing my SSN on a Form 4473. It sailed right through.

I'd really love to know how often NICS does drop the ball.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by ArmedAviator »

It's unfortunate that the government drops the ball so often and screws people like you in the end. With that said, it's a great thing you can buy, sell, and trade guns with any other Ohio resident without having to deal with such nonsense and cheaper, too 8)
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Brian D. wrote:I'd really love to know how often NICS does drop the ball.
Which aspect?
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by BB62 »

SloppySutter wrote:Hey Guys, Before I share my story, know that I am telling the 100% truth in everything I am writing. I have already contacted my Congressman and Senator in an attempt to get my Appeal processed a little bit sooner than 2 years. And while I know that my Ohio CCW that I just received on the 13th of March will allow me to bypass the NICS (assuming that is the FFL's policy), I'd like to point out that that is simply a loophole around the actual issue. The issue here? An innocent man (Me) was accused of being a criminal by the FBI when I have been nothing but a law abiding citizen. I want them to admit they were wrong, and I want an apology along with it. A man must stand by principles. Here is my story: ...
Last year I had a delay (which didn't turn into a denial) on a firearm which was sent to my FFL from an out-of-state FFL. This which infuriated me. Even considering that my last name is Smith, there is only possibly ONE other person in the US with my first name and middle initial (and *none* with my middle name). Additionally, I'm of a different age, different state, and substantially different height than the other "me".

I contacted my congressman, Steve Chabot, and had to fill out a bunch of forms which his office then directed to the ATF. A few months (3 or 4 I think) later I got back a reply, which made some inaccurate assertions, but the gun I was attempting to receive was released to me. A subsequent purchase went right through.

I didn't use my SSN on the 4473, but it had to be part of my letter to my congress-critter.

I suspect that Obama's meddling and removal of resources in key parts of the ATF had something to do with both our troubles.

My suggestion to you is this: take the same route I did, in addition to going through the "appeals process".

Keep us posted.
Last edited by BB62 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by bignflnut »

Each year thousands of Americans are wrongfully denied their Second Amendment rights when NICS incorrectly determines that they are prohibited from firearm ownership. Compounding this grave injustice, this week (1-22-16) the FBI made public that they have stopped processing NICS denial appeals.

Suspending the NICS denial appeal process takes on an even more sinister character when one contemplates the chief gun control measure advocated by the Obama administration. Under a “universal” background check scheme, individuals would be unable to lawfully obtain firearms without subjecting themselves to a NICS check. If such legislation was currently in force, an individual who found themselves erroneously flagged by NICS, no matter how law-abiding, would have no avenue to legally acquire a firearm and no means to challenge their incorrect NICS status, obliterating their ability to exercise their rights in perpetuity, short of judicial intervention.

The Constitution guarantees that an individual cannot be deprived of liberty without the due process of law. When the FBI, or any other arm of the state, erroneously deprives a person of their rights without due process it should be the paramount concern of the government to correct the error. While there has been a sizable increase in NICS checks in recent years, resulting from record demand for firearms, suspending the NICS denial appeals process is not an acceptable means of meeting new demand.
Let's all recall this when making NICS better is touted as a solution we should support.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by SloppySutter »

I contacted my congressman, Steve Chabot, and had to fill out a bunch of forms which his office then directed to the ATF. A few months (3 or 4 I think) later I got back a reply, which made some inaccurate assertions, but the gun I was attempting to receive was released to me. A subsequent purchase went right through.
I did the EXACT same thing. Thanks for sharing that. I was worried that I would never get a reply from Chabot, as it's been almost 3 weeks since I mailed (and faxed) all that paperwork to his office. The Privacy Act of 1974 really slows down everything in this process. It's almost like they try to filibuster your right to buy guns, even if you're eligible, with the hope that you'll eventually just give up?! It's like Obama thought a war of attrition was going to pay off and work?! Idk about y'all, but this crap has removed all doubt of the existence of cognitive bureaucratic dissonance. I also contacted Senator Rob Portman, but I imagine a response from him may take even longer... I'd love to schedule a face to face meeting with either Chabot or Portman, but shame on me for having a full-time salaried position as an engineer that (this is hilarious) JUST CONDUCTED a background check on me in August of 2016! If somebody would just TALK to me, I could prove my innocence in a matter of minutes with wave after wave of evidence. But, nobody will give me the time of day :(

I'll definitely keep y'all posted though on what happens to me all the way through to the end. There needs to be more help resources for people like me, so I want to record my story in hopes that it helps some right-denied guy or girl out there one day. I've also joined the NRA for the mere reason of wanting to support a greater cause that is fighting AGAINST this overzealous control on the acquisition of firearms. It's like one guy said, what's stopping me (or someone that really CAN'T own firearms) from just buying one off a guy in a private purchase. No traceable money trail, no background check, nada... So how safe are we really from armed criminals with "firewalls" like NICS? Man, I might just run for office one day....
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by Dr. Detroit »

Hey Sloppy -- I'm really sorry to hear that you are having to go through this. Please keep us updated.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

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ArmedAviator wrote:It's unfortunate that the government drops the ball so often and screws people like you in the end. With that said, it's a great thing you can buy, sell, and trade guns with any other Ohio resident without having to deal with such nonsense and cheaper, too 8)
Now that the OP has his Ohio CHL, all he really needs to do is to find an FFL or gun store who is willing to bypass the NICS for CHL licensed individuals.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by WestonDon »

I must be missing something here. Let's see if I have this right. The OP is denied by NICS to purchase a firearm then a week later the SO runs a NICS for the CHL and is approved? So what would happen if the original FFL or even another FFL reran the NICS check? Or is that even doable?

If subsequent NICS checks come back clean then what is the point of spending the time and money on the appeal?

From what I have heard this seems to be a growing problem. Makes me wonder how many actually prohibited people are approved.
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Re: NICS Denies the Innocent (Appeals take 2+ years!)

Post by JediSkipdogg »

WestonDon wrote:I must be missing something here. Let's see if I have this right. The OP is denied by NICS to purchase a firearm then a week later the SO runs a NICS for the CHL and is approved? So what would happen if the original FFL or even another FFL reran the NICS check? Or is that even doable?

If subsequent NICS checks come back clean then what is the point of spending the time and money on the appeal?

From what I have heard this seems to be a growing problem. Makes me wonder how many actually prohibited people are approved.
That's one reason I was originally thinking the Social Security Number was left off the 4473. Remember, the sheriff has slightly more tools at their hand than an FFL and a person on the phone.
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