GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

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Brian D.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by Brian D. »

Because of possibly being SWAT'ed, or cuffed and stuffed due to an LE "misunderstanding" of the new law, I'm still not going to visit the anti-2A states while armed...which means I'm still not going to those places.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by JustaShooter »

slidelock wrote:Thanks Morne, would this allow me to carry in Hawaii? David Codrea of WARONGUNS blog opined that it might not.
I have seen opinions both ways - that this Act would supersede such state and local laws as those requiring mandatory registration of firearms, magazine capacity limits, and ammo types, and that it would not. I suspect that if it passes, the average person with a license will not dig into or try to understand the subtleties of the Act and will assume it gives them the ability to carry anywhere on their state's license / permit so I think we will see plenty of cases to establish the extent of the Act in reasonably short order.

In the mean time, I'm with Brian D. - I have no intention of visiting the known anti-2A states while armed as I am not interested in becoming one of the people helping to establish case law on the matter...
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by sd790 »

Mr. Tiberi,

Please considering becoming a co-sponsor of H.R.38 to show your strong support of this important legislation. This bill, if enacted, would enable law-abiding citizens to confidently carry a concealed firearm for their personal protection as they travel across the nation. This is a very positive move to help restore our right to keep and bear arms, which I know that you strongly support.

I look forward to hearing from you that you will be adding your name to the list of cosponsors.

Best regards,
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by djthomas »

Brian D. wrote:Because of possibly being SWAT'ed, or cuffed and stuffed due to an LE "misunderstanding" of the new law, I'm still not going to visit the anti-2A states while armed...which means I'm still not going to those places.
It was several years before I took advantage of LEOSA in Chicago and I have literally set foot in California just once. I still haven't been to NY, NJ or MD although from what I understand they finally stopped harassing LEOSA people at Newark and JFK trying to check their firearms.

Small comfort perhaps but keep in mind that as currently proposed this act would only apply in states where residents either license/permit citizens for concealed carry (albeit on a may issue basis, perhaps) or do not require a license at all. Furthermore this act would require that the handgun be concealed and would not require notification. So your likelihood of being discovered is low, particularly if you choose a nice concealable piece and act your age*. Then if you are discovered licensed concealed carry is not a completely foreign concept there. As a bonus there are provisions for you to sue and recover money if the locals decide to screw with you.

* I say that because one of the first cases involving LEOSA involved some cops getting into a biker bar brawl with the Hells Angels in Sturgis, SD complete with shots fired.

Having said all of that this bill is just that - a bill. It has not been passed into law and who knows when it will even move for consideration what with all the Obamacare stuff and usual start of Congress stuff going on. If it does move, who knows what it will look like in final form to avoid an almost certain filibuster in the Senate. The political junkie in me notes that the Govm'nt is currently funded through April. Congress will either have to do something to keep the government running before then. I wouldn't be surprised to see the content of this bill (plus any amendments) shoved into something related to that. As anti-2A as many Democrats are I don't see them shutting down the government over it, particularly since there are a number of vulnerable D's up for reelection in two years in states where Trump won. The question will be whether or not the Republicans can avoid stirring up too much abortion/Planned Parenthood controversy.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by M-Quigley »

djthomas wrote: Then if you are discovered licensed concealed carry is not a completely foreign concept there. As a bonus there are provisions for you to sue and recover money if the locals decide to screw with you.
At the risk of being accused by some as being afraid, :roll: I think I'll pass on being the first one to be the crash test dummy in their jails and criminal court if this legislation ever passes. That is unless I absolutely have to go to those cities or states for some unknown reason. I suspect there will be plenty of people willing to be the first to test the waters anyway.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by djthomas »

M-Quigley wrote:At the risk of being accused by some as being afraid, :roll: I think I'll pass on being the first one to be the crash test dummy in their jails and criminal court if this legislation ever passes. That is unless I absolutely have to go to those cities or states for some unknown reason. I suspect there will be plenty of people willing to be the first to test the waters anyway.
Oh no, perfectly reasonable. As I said it was a long time before I used LEOSA in unfriendly territory and even then I was triple cautious to follow the rules. Let the Open Carry Texas fools go to New York first and get everything sorted out.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

I'll start a new thread about this, but OFCC has created a position paper regarding interstate reciprocity of concealed carry licenses and permits.

I have a copy for download here.

Many thanks to Phil Mulivor, OFCC's Director of Media Relations, for his work on this paper.

It's a good read when you consider it's aimed at our federal legislators. :wink:
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by JustaShooter »

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:I'll start a new thread about this, but OFCC has created a position paper regarding interstate reciprocity of concealed carry licenses and permits.

I have a copy for download here.

Many thanks to Phil Mulivor, OFCC's Director of Media Relations, for his work on this paper.

It's a good read when you consider it's aimed at our federal legislators. :wink:
For the TL;DR folks, OFCC supports interstate reciprocity under the following 4 conditions:
1. A concealed carry reciprocity statute must entitle an individual holding any state’s concealed carry license or permit to carry a concealed handgun in any other state that issues its own license or permit, or that allows concealed carry without a permit (e.g., Vermont). An individual who may lawfully carry a concealed handgun in their state without a permit must be entitled to carry a concealed handgun in any state that issues a license or permit, or that allows concealed carry without a permit. Washington, DC must be included in interstate reciprocity as if it was a state.
2. The statute must not establish national standards or prerequisites for concealed carry permits nor otherwise preempt states’ permit procedures or firearm laws (except as noted in item 1). Neither must the statute establish any registration mechanism or database. In our view, these activities fail to comport with the Tenth Amendment. Accordingly, the statute’s title should not contain the word “national.”
3. To foreclose discrimination in states hostile to Second Amendment rights, a concealed carry reciprocity law must contain substantive legal safeguards for traveling permit holders, as well as meaningful penalties for states and their subdivisions that subtly or overtly disfavor lawful permit-holding guests.
4. The text of the interstate reciprocity statute must be strategically hardened against constitutional challenges.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by M-Quigley »

I read something recently I had not considered about this Act, not sure if the potential for this is true or not.

http://concealednation.org/2017/02/what ... t-of-2017/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1: A permit holder would only be able to carry in a state that, “has a statute that allows residents of the State to obtain licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms” OR “does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.”

The problem with the above text is that it provides a strong incentive for restrictive states (like Maryland, New Jersey, Hawaii, New York & California) to prohibit concealed carry altogether. Think about it, when faced with the following two choices, do you think that New Jersey and California (who are historically very restrictive in issuing concealed permits) are going to (1) open the floodgates to every freedom loving American to carry a gun, OR (2) simply prohibit concealed carry altogether, thus exempting themselves from the National Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act. If this law passes, reasonable minds could agree we would see at least the following states take steps to completely prohibit concealed carry: California, New Jersey, New York, Maryland, Hawaii, Delaware, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. In sum, we would see a regression in the amount of states that allow concealed carry. Naturally residents of those states could then take their case to the courts and hopefully we would see the state and federal courts rule favorably in some of those jurisdictions, but sadly as we’ve seen over the past few years, that is far from a sure bet.
I would guess the problem for any state that wants to try this is that they would be negatively affecting the "special people" that currently get the so called needs based may issue licenses or permits. Granted, some of them can afford to hire armed security, but they still want their special privilege over the ordinary Joe or Jane. Also, if both CC and OC are prohibited at the same time, wouldn't that cause a court challenge? California's restrictions on CC allegedly only survived the court challenges only because the court didn't consider of open carry as an available option or not.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by AlanM »

The way to fix that is to make it such that if ANYONE other than law enforcement is allowed to carry concealed due to ANY special license then reciprocity is in effect.
That would mean that if those states killed concealed carry licenses all private security would have to open carry.
The snowflakes wouldn't like that.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by JustaShooter »

M-Quigley wrote:I read something recently I had not considered about this Act, not sure if the potential for this is true or not.

http://concealednation.org/2017/02/what ... t-of-2017/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1: A permit holder would only be able to carry in a state that, “has a statute that allows residents of the State to obtain licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms” OR “does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.”

The problem with the above text is that it provides a strong incentive for restrictive states (like Maryland, New Jersey, Hawaii, New York & California) to prohibit concealed carry altogether. Think about it, when faced with the following two choices, do you think that New Jersey and California (who are historically very restrictive in issuing concealed permits) are going to (1) open the floodgates to every freedom loving American to carry a gun, OR (2) simply prohibit concealed carry altogether, thus exempting themselves from the National Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act. If this law passes, reasonable minds could agree we would see at least the following states take steps to completely prohibit concealed carry: California, New Jersey, New York, Maryland, Hawaii, Delaware, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. In sum, we would see a regression in the amount of states that allow concealed carry. Naturally residents of those states could then take their case to the courts and hopefully we would see the state and federal courts rule favorably in some of those jurisdictions, but sadly as we’ve seen over the past few years, that is far from a sure bet.
I would guess the problem for any state that wants to try this is that they would be negatively affecting the "special people" that currently get the so called needs based may issue licenses or permits. Granted, some of them can afford to hire armed security, but they still want their special privilege over the ordinary Joe or Jane. Also, if both CC and OC are prohibited at the same time, wouldn't that cause a court challenge? California's restrictions on CC allegedly only survived the court challenges only because the court didn't consider of open carry as an available option or not.
That approach would almost certainly not survive a court challenge. Recall that IL was forced by a Federal court to enact some kind of concealed carry law.

I think the more likely issue will be that if any state or local laws restricting firearm type, ammunition type, magazine capacity, etc. are still valid if this Act passes that we will see more of those laws passed in the anti-gun states in an attempt to trip up those taking advantage of the Act. Only time will tell, of course.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by bignflnut »

As I enjoy a pipe in my rocking chair...
from my front porch...

This is all brilliantly convoluted because we've strayed from the simplicity of the 2A RKBA.
Concealed, open, who gives a rip? Show me that concern in a founding document/discussion.

How many lines of code does it take to keep building on these false premises about rights v privileges, state licensing vs individual liberty...at what point to we stop the insanity?
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by M-Quigley »

bignflnut wrote:As I enjoy a pipe in my rocking chair...
from my front porch...

This is all brilliantly convoluted because we've strayed from the simplicity of the 2A RKBA.
Concealed, open, who gives a rip? Show me that concern in a founding document/discussion.

How many lines of code does it take to keep building on these false premises about rights v privileges, state licensing vs individual liberty...at what point to we stop the insanity?
Probably not in my lifetime. :( Someone refresh my memory, when was the first local or state gun control law first enacted in the US? (not getting a firm answer on google)
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by Brian D. »

M-Quigley wrote:
bignflnut wrote:As I enjoy a pipe in my rocking chair...
from my front porch...

This is all brilliantly convoluted because we've strayed from the simplicity of the 2A RKBA.
Concealed, open, who gives a rip? Show me that concern in a founding document/discussion.

How many lines of code does it take to keep building on these false premises about rights v privileges, state licensing vs individual liberty...at what point to we stop the insanity?
Probably not in my lifetime. :( Someone refresh my memory, when was the first local or state gun control law first enacted in the US? (not getting a firm answer on google)
The Sullivan Act of 1911 in New York is the first major one I can think of.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by M-Quigley »

Brian D. wrote: The Sullivan Act of 1911 in New York is the first major one I can think of.


I have read of laws restricting carry of guns as far back as the post Civil War era, in the South, as a way to try to prevent freed slaves from carrying guns. And then of course there's the famous city ordinance in Tombstone. Regardless of when the first one was though, the fact is infringements on the 2nd Amendment is not something new, happened way before anyone on here was born. It's going to take a long time, if it ever happens, to get back to the way the founding Fathers intended it to be.
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