GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

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sd790
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GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by sd790 »

On the first day of the new Congress, GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act. At first I didn't support this. I read the text of the bill and have a much different opinion about it now. Let's hope that this is what actually gets passed.

Article with background

From the article:
Hudson’s office published this summary of the legislation:

Rep. Hudson’s bill, which is supported by major pro-Second Amendment groups, would allow people with a state-issued concealed carry license or permit to conceal a handgun in any other state that allows concealed carry, as long as the permit holder follows the laws of that state. It also allows residents of Constitutional carry states the ability to carry in other states that recognize their own resident’s right to concealed carry.
Text of the bill
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by JustaShooter »

Can any of the lawyer types opine as to whether this Act would protect, say, an Ohioan with a CHL carrying a handgun with more than 7 rounds in NY? Curious how their handgun registration law, and magazine capacity law, would be affected by this Act. Similarly, NJ's hollow-point ammunition law, and so on.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by JediSkipdogg »

JustaShooter wrote:Can any of the lawyer types opine as to whether this Act would protect, say, an Ohioan with a CHL carrying a handgun with more than 7 rounds in NY? Curious how their handgun registration law, and magazine capacity law, would be affected by this Act. Similarly, NJ's hollow-point ammunition law, and so on.
My interpretation and further online reading appears that it will simply follow the way a driver's license operates. You could legally use your CHL in California, New Jersey, New York, etc. But you still have to follow the other laws of the state you are in. So one would need to acquire special magazines and ammo depending on the state they are visiting. The only law that would change is if a state issues a CHL, they must accept all CHLs.

Now, how that applies to registration and states where you can only carry what your CHL says you can, that I don't know. I think the bill needs a bit of a tweeting, but they can't push it too far or it will never pass. As written now I think it could pass pretty easily. Start invalidating more state laws, and this could take a 10th Amendment battle in court.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

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When Ohio CHL started, Toledo had a limit of 10 rounds in the magazine. It was joked that we'd roll our window down and fire X amount of times to get our magazine down to the limit. It was then found to be enforced only on residents of the city, out-of-towners were not adversely affected.

Perhaps this is a way to keep states' rights on magazine limits and bullet types while allowing visitors to come to the state legally with their handgun.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by djthomas »

JediSkipdogg wrote:My interpretation and further online reading appears that it will simply follow the way a driver's license operates. You could legally use your CHL in California, New Jersey, New York, etc. But you still have to follow the other laws of the state you are in. So one would need to acquire special magazines and ammo depending on the state they are visiting. The only law that would change is if a state issues a CHL, they must accept all CHLs.
With respect to the magazine limits and ammunition I suspect you are correct so long as the rules don't amount to a de facto ban on carrying a concealed firearm in the state since strictly speaking these items are not the firearm. It's worth nothing that even in liberal New York the federal appeals court found an attempt to limit magazines to seven rounds was arbitrary and restored the previous limit of 10 (because somehow 10 is not arbitrary).

However with respect to the firearm itself (e.g. registration) I don't see restrictions, including those imposed on in-state licensees, surviving. It's convenient to discuss the language as requiring the other state to recognize the person's CHL or somehow making the person to be equivalent to a licensee of the other state ("you must follow the same rules...") but that's incorrect. The preemption portion of the law has nothing to do with CHLs or the rules that apply to them.

As an example, in Ohio it is unlawful for a licensee to carry in a church without permission. However an out-of-state visitor would be allowed to carry in a church unless the church prohibits firearms as a private entity. Arguably an out-of-state visitor could also carry into a liquor establishment and drink as long as they don't become intoxicated.

Incidentally if this becomes law I think it would be prime justification for striking churches from the CPZ list - if we must allow people from 49 states to carry in our churches without seeking permission why should we subject our own citizens to the mother may I nonsense under threat of a felony? Make them post like any other private entity. I don't think there'd be much luck getting rid of the no drinking rule for liquor establishments though.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by walnut red »

I think laws from other states, other than registration, would hold up. Yeah, when my Brother-in-law from Utah comes to visit he can drive in Ohio on a Utah drivers license, but he is expected to follow Ohio traffic laws.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by Javelin Man »

How many states require the CHL holder to notify that they are armed when stopped for law enforcement purposes? We would really have to get rid of our current notification law if all licensees across the nation are allowed. How many would get jacked up by our current batch of OSP officers who still believe you must notify even if you're not armed?
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by djthomas »

walnut red wrote:When my Brother-in-law from Utah comes to visit he can drive in Ohio on a Utah drivers license, but he is expected to follow Ohio traffic laws.
There's a common sense appeal to that interpretation but let's look at the statutory reasons it is true. When it comes to driver's licenses Ohio statutorily exempts nonresidents from obtaining an Ohio driver's license but there is nothing in the statute exempting them from any other portions of the driving law. Likewise when it comes to concealed carry reciprocity Ohio law has weaved out of state licenses into the definition of "valid concealed handgun license" (see ORC 2923.11 (N)(1)) so they can enjoy the same privileges (and be subject to the same restrictions) as an Ohio-issued licensee.

However when you look at this federal bill it pre-empts all state and local laws with two limited exceptions:
1) State law that prohibits firearms on government owned property
2) State law that allows private entities to prohibit firearms on their property
Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)) and subject only to the requirements of this section ... a person ... may possess or carry a concealed handgun ... in any State that— ‘‘(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or ‘‘(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes
Subsection (b) is what permits the state law exceptions I described in 1 and 2 above.

There's nothing in there about having to follow the other state's concealed handgun law, including notification, obtaining permission to carry in a church, CPZs other than government property and private property, etc.

Therefore those CHL rules are preempted by somebody in compliance with the federal law.
Javelin Man wrote:How many would get jacked up by our current batch of OSP officers who still believe you must notify even if you're not armed?
Probably not too many. Yeah it'd be rough at first but after the state starts paying out under subsections (c) and (d) memos will be distributed and they'll fall into compliance really quickly.

Also I need to correct myself, having re-read section (e) in its entirety. I don't think magazine and ammo limits will be permitted to stand:
The term ‘handgun’ includes any magazine for use in a handgun and any ammunition loaded into the handgun or its magazine.
Although if you want to get really nit-picky I think it could be argued that you can't unload a gun with hollow points in NJ. I'd probably still play it safe with respect to that state should I ever have the unfortunate need to be there. Two other gems I found. Carrying on lands* administered by the BLM, NWRs, BLR, and Army Corp of Engineers would become legal and, perhaps most critically persons carrying under this law would be exempt from the GFSZA.

* I don't know if under federal law the term "lands" includes waters.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by 3FULLMAGS+1 »

In Kalifornia, you can only own/carry certain gun models.....right...... so how does that pan out?

If I'm carrying a model that is not on Kali's "list", I'm still ok?

I get migrain headaches and this looks like a BIG one headed our way.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by djthomas »

3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:In Kalifornia, you can only own/carry certain gun models.....right...... so how does that pan out?
Under California law, yes.
3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:If I'm carrying a model that is not on Kali's "list", I'm still ok?
As long as you are in compliance with subsections (a) and (b) then California law would not apply to you.
3FULLMAGS+1 wrote:I get migrain headaches and this looks like a BIG one headed our way.
Maybe if you're a politician in New York or California, but as far as the ordinary law abiding citizen goes this proposed law is extremely simple and cuts through reams of anti-2A red tape. Ohio legislators would do well to take note of how much can be accomplished with so few words.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by WestonDon »

If djthomas's analysis is correct, and I hope it is, then I am in favor of this bill. It pretty well sticks it to the coastal elites.

I am skeptical though, that it can survive without major amendments.

I will reserve further judgement until I see the final version.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by walnut red »

Hope you're correct DJ, it will be interesting to see if it survives and how the test cases turn out.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by slidelock »

I'm going to call my rep Bill Johnson and ask if he has or will cosponsor this bill. Then follow up immediately with an email. The answer will be posted here.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by Morne »

Bill Johnson, who is a respectably good shot with a Glock, was one of the original co-sponsors of the bill.

Here's the list of Ohio co-sponsors:
Ohio Co-Sponsors

OFCC will be working to expand that list. :idea:

Everyone is encouraged to contact their congressman and ask for them to become co-sponsors.
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Re: GOP introduces the National Reciprocity Act of 2017

Post by slidelock »

Thanks Morne, would this allow me to carry in Hawaii? David Codrea of WARONGUNS blog opined that it might not.
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