Smart Gun Requirements

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Javelin Man
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Smart Gun Requirements

Post by Javelin Man »

President Barack Obama announced new steps Friday to help curb gun violence, including by identifying the requirements that "smart guns" would have to meet for law enforcement agencies to buy and use them as well as sharing mental health records with the federal background check system.
Yea, let's see what requirements need to be met to convince the Secret Service to use these Smart guns. :roll:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-announ ... 19265.html
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by ohioborntexan »

The president also called for more attention to be paid to the mentally ill. The Social Security Administration will publish a proposed rule to help ensure that mental health records about people who are prohibited from buying a gun are reported to the background check system.
I am not trying to hijack the thread but the article at the posted link also said “The Social Security Administration will publish a proposed rule to help ensure that mental health records about people who are prohibited from buying a gun are reported to the background check system.

I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by sodbuster95 »

ohioborntexan wrote:I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
SSA has access to the health records of anyone claiming disability, including mental health disability. Perhaps that's what they're referring to? I know that's a major concern for a lot of veterans when it concerns their records with the VA.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by JediSkipdogg »

sodbuster95 wrote:
ohioborntexan wrote:I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
SSA has access to the health records of anyone claiming disability, including mental health disability. Perhaps that's what they're referring to? I know that's a major concern for a lot of veterans when it concerns their records with the VA.
I guess I'm trying to see how that would be bad. I guess if they are receiving social security disability due to mental health, which means they are incapable of holding a job due to their mental health, then should they still have access to weapons?

Will it ultimately accomplish anything? Probably not, but I'm trying to see where the bad in this fully is.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

sodbuster95 wrote:
ohioborntexan wrote:I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
SSA has access to the health records of anyone claiming disability, including mental health disability. Perhaps that's what they're referring to? I know that's a major concern for a lot of veterans when it concerns their records with the VA.
Add to that a listing of a SS recipients who have been assigned a representative payee. That's the real sticker here because the assumption is that happens when you have mental issues preventing you from managing your own affairs, but the reality is:
[T]here currently exists no clear standard for when a representative payee should be appointed in a particular case. The Social Security Act provides that "(i)f the Secretary determines that the interest of any individual under this title would be served thereby, certification of payment of such individual's benefit under this title may be made * * * (to a representative payee)." [FN2] The Act does not contain any standard for determining when appointment of a representative payee is in the beneficiary's interest. Current SSA regulations provide only that a representative payee will be appointed when "due to a mental or physical condition or due to * * * youth," a beneficiary is "not able to manage or direct the management of" his or her own benefits. [FN3] The regulations neither indicate what constitutes an inability to manage benefits, nor what mental or physical condition must be found. This lack of a standard requires SSA personnel to make largely discretionary decisions that are difficult to challenge individually or to evaluate programmatically.
http://archive.law.fsu.edu/library/admi ... 05913.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (emphasis mine)
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by curmudgeon3 »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
sodbuster95 wrote:
ohioborntexan wrote:I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
SSA has access to the health records of anyone claiming disability, including mental health disability. Perhaps that's what they're referring to? I know that's a major concern for a lot of veterans when it concerns their records with the VA.
I guess I'm trying to see how that would be bad. I guess if they are receiving social security disability due to mental health, which means they are incapable of holding a job due to their mental health, then should they still have access to weapons?

Will it ultimately accomplish anything? Probably not, but I'm trying to see where the bad in this fully is.
Jedi, It appears you've answered your own question. (Shades of the AWB !)
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by M-Quigley »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
sodbuster95 wrote:
ohioborntexan wrote:I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
SSA has access to the health records of anyone claiming disability, including mental health disability. Perhaps that's what they're referring to? I know that's a major concern for a lot of veterans when it concerns their records with the VA.
I guess I'm trying to see how that would be bad. I guess if they are receiving social security disability due to mental health, which means they are incapable of holding a job due to their mental health, then should they still have access to weapons?

Will it ultimately accomplish anything? Probably not, but I'm trying to see where the bad in this fully is.
With SS the term "mental issues" is rather broad. Things that might interfere with someone doing the job they have been doing in the past might not have anything to do with their ability to own a firearm or use it, even in a defensive situation.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by WestonDon »

JediSkipdogg wrote:
sodbuster95 wrote:
ohioborntexan wrote:I haven’t seen what mental health records might prohibit a person from buying a gun. What exactly is the Social Security Administration going to report.
SSA has access to the health records of anyone claiming disability, including mental health disability. Perhaps that's what they're referring to? I know that's a major concern for a lot of veterans when it concerns their records with the VA.
I guess I'm trying to see how that would be bad. I guess if they are receiving social security disability due to mental health, which means they are incapable of holding a job due to their mental health, then should they still have access to weapons?

Will it ultimately accomplish anything? Probably not, but I'm trying to see where the bad in this fully is.
Assuming that one accepts the premise that the Federal Government should decide who may or may not have a gun in the first place (I don't), the danger as I see it is that SSA or any other agency for that matter can decide seemingly at will what condition is a disqualifier. If they can't now you can bet that's coming next.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

The proposed draft is out: https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--I ... IAA%29.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I suggested above, it's tied to the question of appointment of a representative payee (a person or organization that manages someone else's SS benefits). The good news is that not everyone who has been assigned a representative payee will be submitted for NICS exclusion:
Finally, the regulation requires that the individual lack the mental capacity to manage his or her own affairs “as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease.” Consequently, the basis for the individual’s inability to manage his or her own affairs must therefore be the “result of” his or her mental impairment. As a result, individuals whom we are required to report to NICS will be a subset of the universe of individuals for whom we have appointed a representative payee.
This sounds good, and their proposal does suggest an effort to tie disqualifications only to those whose need for someone else to handle their finances is directly tied to their mental disability, but it still risks a very broad categorization process which could include large #s of people inappropriately.

Also, the appeals process only allows for the person to submit documents which will be reviewed only by the SSA's own decision maker, not an independent authority, and the petitioner doesn't get a hearing at which they can review information used against them.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by ohioborntexan »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:The proposed draft is out: https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--I ... IAA%29.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I suggested above, it's tied to the question of appointment of a representative payee (a person or organization that manages someone else's SS benefits). The good news is that not everyone who has been assigned a representative payee will be submitted for NICS exclusion:
Finally, the regulation requires that the individual lack the mental capacity to manage his or her own affairs “as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease.” Consequently, the basis for the individual’s inability to manage his or her own affairs must therefore be the “result of” his or her mental impairment. As a result, individuals whom we are required to report to NICS will be a subset of the universe of individuals for whom we have appointed a representative payee.
This sounds good, and their proposal does suggest an effort to tie disqualifications only to those whose need for someone else to handle their finances is directly tied to their mental disability, but it still risks a very broad categorization process which could include large #s of people inappropriately.

Also, the appeals process only allows for the person to submit documents which will be reviewed only by the SSA's own decision maker, not an independent authority, and the petitioner doesn't get a hearing at which they can review information used against them.
I haven't read the entire draft but so far it appears to be just one more way to deny people the right to own a firearm without due process.

It would make very little if any difference, in crime.The SS administration or VA should have no say so at all. To deny a right should take a law passed by congress or adjudication by a judge and jury.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

So, it looks like this is a law that will work on a simple "going forward" process.

If you've already got a gun, this law doesn't look like it will affect your existing property.

But what about all those doctors and nurses that asked if there was a gun in the house?

Oops.
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Re: Smart Gun Requirements

Post by MyWifeSaidYes »

And, apparently being "adjudicated" doesn't require a judge...
Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4), any person ‘who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution’ is prohibited from shipping, transporting, possessing or receiving firearms under federal firearms laws. ATF has clarified through regulations that this prohibitor covers the following circumstances and categories of individuals:

(1) A determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition or disease:
◦ Is a danger to himself, herself or others; or
◦ Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his or her own affairs.

This includes (1) a person found to be insane by a court in a criminal case, and (2) a person found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 76b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. §§ 850a, 876b.

(2) A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority. This includes commitment to a mental institution involuntarily, commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness or commitment for other reasons, such as for drug use. It does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.
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