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Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

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Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby BDS_237 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:01 pm

I was wondering if anyone here is a pilot and what you know about transporting and carrying while piloting your own plane.

I know that many hunting lodges in the mountains are only accessible by small planes so there has to be a legal way, but when it comes to say carrying a handgun on your person, can you do this legally?

I have my PPL but have not flown in some time, so this is just something that sits in the back of my mind.

-Sean.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby Shadow » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:49 pm

The problem is getting from your house to your plane.

Once your airborn you're no longer at an airport and you could carry.

In WV its no problem, you can carry in a GA terminal. Not in Ohio.

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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby mreising » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:25 pm

Shadow wrote:The problem is getting from your house to your plane.

Once your airborn you're no longer at an airport and you could carry.

In WV its no problem, you can carry in a GA terminal. Not in Ohio.

Philip

Here are the prohibitions:
ORC2923.126 (B) (1) and (8)
(B) A valid license issued under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:

(1) A police station, sheriff’s office, or state highway patrol station, premises controlled by the bureau of criminal identification and investigation, a state correctional institution, jail, workhouse, or other detention facility, an airport passenger terminal, or an institution that is maintained, operated, managed, and governed pursuant to division (A) of section 5119.02 of the Revised Code or division (A)(1) of section 5123.03 of the Revised Code;

{portions deleted}

(8) An aircraft that is in, or intended for operation in, foreign air transportation, interstate air transportation, intrastate air transportation, or the transportation of mail by aircraft;

I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe a private, general aviation aircraft are prohibited by these rules. Commercial aircraft would be covered in (B)(8). Note that section (B)(1) refers to airport passenger terminal; I don't believe that definition fits the FBO, but even if it does, you can take the gun from your car to the plane and just not carry it in the building.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby jabeatty » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:44 pm

mreising wrote:I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe a private, general aviation aircraft are prohibited by these rules.

I guess it depends on the interpretation of "inter/intrastate air transportation." That sure sounds like a blanket definition of the use of a small plane.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby mreising » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:43 pm

jabeatty wrote:
mreising wrote:I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe a private, general aviation aircraft are prohibited by these rules.

I guess it depends on the interpretation of "inter/intrastate air transportation." That sure sounds like a blanket definition of the use of a small plane.

Even with Jim's definition, one could still transport an unloaded firearm and reload once you exit the plane. I guess we would have to find out what the intent of the legislature was with these laws. I think that because they specified mail transport as one of the prohibitions, and also specify air transportation, that they are referring to specific aviation operations such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations; otherwise they would have stated it is prohibited to carry in any aircraft.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby djthomas » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:08 pm

No need to guess the Legislature's intent. They were kind enough to provide us with definitions. As we know 2923.126 (B)(8) prohibits carrying in "An aircraft that is in, or intended for operation in, foreign air transportation, interstate air transportation, intrastate air transportation, or the transportation of mail by aircraft"

In order to see what that means we turn to the section entitled Concealed Handgun Definitions, specifically 2923.124 (N): "“Foreign air transportation,” “interstate air transportation,” and “intrastate air transportation” have the same meanings as in 49 U.S.C. 40102, as now or hereafter amended."

From 49 U.S.C. 40102:
(23) "foreign air transportation" means the transportation of passengers or property by aircraft as a common carrier for compensation, or the transportation of mail by aircraft, between a place in the United States and a place outside the United States when any part of the transportation is by aircraft.

(25) "interstate air transportation" means the transportation of passengers or property by aircraft as a common carrier for compensation, or the transportation of mail by aircraft - (A) between a place in - (i) a State, territory, or possession of the United States and a place in the District of Columbia or another State, territory, or possession of the United States; (ii) Hawaii and another place in Hawaii through the airspace over a place outside Hawaii; (iii) the District of Columbia and another place in the District of Columbia; or (iv) a territory or possession of the United States and another place in the same territory or possession; and (B) when any part of the transportation is by aircraft.

(27) "intrastate air transportation" means the transportation by a common carrier of passengers or property for compensation, entirely in the same State, by turbojet-powered aircraft capable of carrying at least 30 passengers.

To sum up unless you're operating as a common carrier or transporting mail an aircraft is not a prohibited place under 2923.126 (B)(8). Personally I think (B)(8) and (B)(10) [other places prohibited by federal law] exist only to remind licensees that federal law already prohibits weapons there.

As far as the airport goes so long as you don't have your weapon concealed ready at hand in the airport passenger terminal or a government facility you're fine. I'm not totally up to speed on general aviation but I believe that there's usually a demarcation between what's considered the general aviation area and the area where TSA rules apply and all persons must be screened.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby calvin56 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:40 am

Unless it has changed recently it was a requirement to have a survival kit when flying the "loop" from here to Europe. That kit included a rifle. I don't remember who (what government) required the kit.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby djthomas » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:59 am

calvin56 wrote:Unless it has changed recently it was a requirement to have a survival kit when flying the "loop" from here to Europe. That kit included a rifle. I don't remember who (what government) required the kit.

I know at one time that was a requirement for flights over interior Alaska. I believe that particular requirement has been scaled back as well. I can't remember if they did away with the firearm requirement or moved it to the optional category.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby BlueMR2 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:23 am

Carrying on a Part 91 flight is not an issue. However, good luck trying to get your gun TO the airplane... Unless you're lucky enough to live at one of the few remaining through the fence operations, you probably won't be able to. All the airports that I've been to recently (and have looked), have CPZ signs on the perimeter fencing. So, you can't get the gun from the parking lot in to the airplane... :-(
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby jabeatty » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:39 pm

djthomas wrote:No need to guess the Legislature's intent. They were kind enough to provide us with definitions.

And they're actually clear and concise!

(Which means there must be some revisions in the pipeline, as we simply can't HAVE that!)
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby sodbuster95 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:39 pm

jabeatty wrote:
djthomas wrote:No need to guess the Legislature's intent. They were kind enough to provide us with definitions.

And they're actually clear and concise!

(Which means there must be some revisions in the pipeline, as we simply can't HAVE that!)


Jaded much? :P :lol:
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby Rhino » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:49 pm

djthomas has it correct. You can carry on a Part 91 GA aircraft that is not engaged in commercial air transportation. And I'm not sure what airports BlueMR2 has been visiting but the only CPZ signs I've seen at GA airports are the ones that are on government owned buildings, and thus are enumerated CPZs. The ramps and parking lots of those facilities are not CPZs however. I have yet to see any CPZ sign at a privately owned airport anywhere, though I don't doubt that some do exist somewhere. I am heavily involved in aviation and I carry at airports all the time. As long as I don't enter a government owned building or a passenger terminal, I am perfectly legal in the state of Ohio. In fact, the biggest problem you will face is having to figure out if you can legally enter the FBO when you land at an airport you aren't familiar with. Just make sure your flight plans don't include stops in Illinois.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby TRDFurgesson » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:00 pm

I have wondered about this as well. I fly part 135, (no undeclared or loaded weapons allowed aboard). Most of our operations are conducted outside the terminal and ramp SIDA on part 91 ramps (general aviation) without any security whatsoever. I ecort my passengers on the ramp but none of them are screened. Logan Is the only airport i have found that screens at the FBO (general aviation terminal). I'll corner an airport officer at CLE on my way home this week and see if I can get an answer. I will guess that outside of the secure terminal area CC would be legal. THIS IS JUST A GUESS. I wish I could CC in the cockpit but I don't think 135 (air taxi) has provisions for carry like domestic 121 (sched. pax) does.
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby BlueMR2 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:02 am

Rhino wrote:djthomas has it correct. You can carry on a Part 91 GA aircraft that is not engaged in commercial air transportation. And I'm not sure what airports BlueMR2 has been visiting but the only CPZ signs I've seen at GA airports are the ones that are on government owned buildings, and thus are enumerated CPZs. The ramps and parking lots of those facilities are not CPZs however. I have yet to see any CPZ sign at a privately owned airport anywhere, though I don't doubt that some do exist somewhere. I am heavily involved in aviation and I carry at airports all the time. As long as I don't enter a government owned building or a passenger terminal, I am perfectly legal in the state of Ohio. In fact, the biggest problem you will face is having to figure out if you can legally enter the FBO when you land at an airport you aren't familiar with. Just make sure your flight plans don't include stops in Illinois.


Toledo Express and Toledo Executive are the ones that I enter from the outside. I can't speak to any others as I'm already inside them when I land, and I rarely ever actually leave an airport via the ground (airplanes and weather have both proven too unreliable for me to do actual scheduled trips in them, I only fly for fun nowadays). Both have signs up at all entrances and you may or may not (depends on if you have a code, etc) be able to get to the flight line without going through a posted building... Either way, it's pretty clear that they really don't want us there (gee, wonder if that has something to do with why they're both dying off?).
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Re: Flying a GA Aircraft with a gun on board...?

Postby Rhino » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:45 pm

I meant inside the building. They can't do a whole lot about the ramp area, though at a commercial airport, usually you are technically within the secure area on the ramp. The FBO needs to post the doors on their buildings, which would mean you'd have to lock the gun in the aircraft before entering. But if you're carrying passengers for hire, you aren't allowed to carry anyway, except under the TSA armed pilots program.
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