Tragedy and the gun controllers argument

[Tither]

Heavily edited
Link Violent crime is not caused by law-abiding gun owners

"With Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels essentially shilling for the small but vocal Washington CeaseFire, Evergreen State anti-gunners have opened a new gun control campaign that typically offers nothing but wants a lot."

"Exploiting the Capitol Hill murders and other recent Seattle incidents, the gun control lobby has launched a massive assault on this state's gun owners, but with the same old goals that are irrelevant to current problems."

I thought it might be good to take a look at the gun control argument to see what, if anything gun control might accomplish to lower crime and senseless killings. I would ask everyone to chime in if they have a different view than mine, or any pertinent information.

Here is a typical anti-gunner argument, and why they think we are total A Holes for having a 2nd Amendment Constitutionally recognized inalienable right to own firearms.

First of all, let me say that we all recognize this as a tragedy and we all can feel for the boy and his family, but would even a total ban on guns from the Law-abiding have stopped it from happening?

Heavily edited but I will refer to parts of the article even though they are not printed here. One can read the entire linked article if they wish.
Link Boy's death becomes tragic ammunition in the war on firearms

AS little David Pacheco was being rushed to hospital in a New York taxi after being shot in the chest on Easter Sunday, he momentarily regained consciousness, looked up at his mother and stretched out his arms.

Gun controller ploy number one. Emote! Because that is about the only weapon gun controllers have, except for falsifying and over exaggerations. Again let me state that this is tragic and we all feel bad, but can gun control work to stop what we are all feeling bad about?

As the minivan passed through an intersection in the rough Morris Heights area of the Bronx, a standoff between rival gangs - one Hispanic, the other African American - erupted in gunfire. In the chaos a stray bullet pierced the sliding rear door of the passing minivan and went straight into the little boy's chest.

Canada is not only connected to us, but their people are very much like Americans, and Canada has the kind of gun control the Mayor wants. Can we learn from their experiment in gun control as a crime fighting measure? How are they doing, and could this tragic death been prevented if we would just do what the mayor wants?

Sadly no. Why? Because we can't keep drugs from coming into our country even for a month, so even if we ban all guns, and destroy every gun on the country, drug dealers will just import them in with their illegal drugs.

Link Biker gangs' feuds leave bloody trail
Turf wars between rivals have killed club members and innocent bystanders

Link Canadian Conservatives

The Prime Minister also stated that "This measure is going to go a long way to help beat back the epidemic of guns, gangs and drugs that is plaguing our cities.

Canada has registered all guns like the mayor wants, has their violent crime gone down?
Link Criminal victimization Canada

Youth, single people more at risk of victimization Violent victimization was highest among young people aged 15 to 24, and the risk steadily declined as age increased. Rates in this age group were 1.5 times higher than those for people aged 25 to 34, and 19 times higher than for seniors aged 65 and older.

Link See graph showing 1999 violent crime and 2004

[Tither]

Yet each year about 30,000 Americans die from gunfire, ....... And for every American killed by a gun, there are two non-fatal firearm injuries.

It's best if we have the facts as we discuss these things. So lets look at them.

Link Click here to see a graph of the plummeting of nonfatal firearms injuries in the U.S.

The violent crimes included are rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault.

Here is either a lie or at the very least, a deception and a total misrepresentation of the facts.

Yet each year about 30,000 Americans die from gunfire,

Fact Murder Content Updated 02/17/06

An estimated 16,137 persons were murdered nationwide, a decline of 2.4 percent from the 2003 figure.

Still pretty bad huh. I think so too. However this is the figure for ALL murders not just guns. Link Total firearms 2004: = 9,326 were killed by firearms. Or about 57%.

If we are going to solve this problem we have to ask ourselves whom is it that commits murder. We need to find out this info so that we can focus our crime fighting on the actual problem. After all, doesn't that sound like the most logical step? Is it the Law-abiding homeowner who is the problem? And will gun control solve this problem?

Link Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues

The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.18 Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade.

Link Click here for a study done by the University of Tennessee Med School wait a moment and the link will take you to the exact paragraph.

Looking only to official criminal records, data over the past thirty years consistently show that the mythology of murderers as ordinary citizens does not hold true. Studies have found that approximately 75% of murderers have adult criminal records, and that murderers average a prior adult criminal career of six years, including four major adult felony arrests. These studies also found that when the murder occurred [a]bout 11% of murder arrestees [were] actually on pre-trial release--that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense.

The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of murderers don't have adult records is that they are juveniles. Thus, by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record. Juvenile criminal records might well show these murderers to have extensive serious criminal records.

Link Violence in America - Effective Solutions

more than two-thirds of gun homicide "victims" are involved with drug trafficking or have evidence of ante-mortem illicit drug use.

Not only do the data show that acquaintance and domestic homicide are a minority of homicides,[26] but the FBI's definition of acquaintance and domestic homicide requires only that the murderer knew or was related to the decedent. That dueling drug dealers are acquainted does not make them "friends." Over three-quarters of murderers have long histories of violence against not only their enemies and other "acquaintances," but also against their relatives.

The gun control advocacy literature from the "medical community" shows that fully two-thirds of gun homicide "victims" are, in fact, drug dealers and their customers who wreak tremendous human and economic havoc upon society. In failing to account for this, the medical literature cannot and does not honestly assess these deaths.

Now that we understand who commits murder, would gun control stop murderers and murders from happening? Isn't it a fact that criminals are already prohibited from possessing guns? And is it not a fact that even if we ban all guns from the law-abiding, the murderers will just have them imported from drug dealers?

[Tither]

Many of the guns behind the statistics are purchased cheap at one of the more than 5000 gun shows held across the US each year. In many states it is possible to roll up to these weekend markets and purchase not only high-powered, military-style assault weapons but also the armour-piecing bullets sometimes known as "cop-killers".

According to the federal bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), gun shows are also the second-leading source of illegally held weapons.

This week, gun shows will be in focus when New York Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg convenes a national summit on illegal handguns aimed at breaking down congressional opposition to tougher laws on those licensed to sell them.

More -- Ahum-- misrepresentations. . Facts! Link Firearms and Crime Statistics

Offenders

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

Link An Army of Gun Lies

According to a National Institute of Justice study released in December 1997, only 2 percent of guns used in crimes come from gun shows. ... in February 1989, a former BATF employee who had become a paid consultant for Handgun Control testified to Congress that assault weapons were rarely used in crimes.

Link "Assault Weapons"

Assault weapons are not the weapons of choice among drug dealers, gang members or criminals in general. Assault weapons are used in about one-fifth of one percent (.20%) of all violent crimes and about one percent in gun crimes.

The armor piercing Cop Killer bullets remark is totally wrong. Link "Cop-killer" Bullets By Mike Casey

The inflammatory headlines aren't hard to find; "Deadly Teflon Bullets Blast Through Police Vests"; "NRA Opposes Cop Killer Bullet Ban," etc. Likewise, the misleading scenes in television crime dramas and in movies are numerous. A memorable scene in one of the "Lethal Weapon" movies had Mel Gibson's character firing "Cop-killer" bullets through the blade of a bulldozer! The real story is significantly less dramatic. ....

In the mid 1960's, Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator) began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets like windshield glass and automobile doors.....

Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born. ....

Congress got into the act and proposed legislation that would have outlawed any bullet based on its ability to penetrate certain bullet resistant material. The FBI, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, and other forensic experts cautioned that the proposed ban was too vague to be enforceable. The NRA opposed the proposed law since it would have banned not only the controversial armor piercing handgun rounds, but nearly all conventional rifle ammunition as well. (Most rifle ammunition will easily penetrate the most commonly worn protective vests.)

[Petrovich]

Great posts dude.

What can I say??? Man you make good points and a strong argument....but we're on the same side.

Some on here might try to argue with you on the drug thing. To a few forum members there shouldn't be any laws against drugs. They figure drugs should be legal and that would somehow make crime disappear.

I'm not gonna mention any names.

[Tither]

but we're on the same side.

I surely hope that I didn’t imply other wise. If you got that impression, I apologize.

Some polls have the Democrats taking either the House or Senate, or both, and they have sincere hopes for the Presidency as well. To that end, the anti-gunners seem to be ramping up their push for more and more gun control again, and it’s all lies. I am hoping that if I post what I know about the gun control argument, others would post what they know on how to defeat the Antis then I, and others can learn from you guys.

Here is what I mean, At the Keep And Bear Website I found Link 19 Anti-gun stories for today.

In the Nineties, there were a lot of public Internet boards where we could discuss gun control like CNN, NPR, and others, where the general public could hear our side of the argument, and we soundly defeated all of their arguments. Now the boards are conspicuously gone, and let’s just say that I don’t think that is just coincidence.

The Constitution is very important to our future generations and us. So if we are going to save it, this time it will take all of us as individuals, calling TV Stations writing letters to the editors, calling our Congress critters, and talking to our friends in order to dispel their lies, and get our message out.

I have no illusions that the antis mean business, and they want the 2nd Amendment Dead!

[Tither]

Here is more proof that gun control is not crime control. England has some of the strongest gun control in the Western World. Are they safer? Did it solve their gun crime problems? Are illegal guns no longer a problem like the Mayors want? Their society is very much like ours, so it is a good reference on how well using gun control, as crime control would work here.

Edited. Local paper from Yorkshire England writes,. Link 365 days - and nearly 1,000 gun incidents

POLICE in Kirklees responded to nearly 1,000 firearm incidents in the past year, the Examiner can reveal.

The figure, which equates to almost three incidents involving guns every single day, was revealed in a report by Chief Inspector Jon Carter yesterday.

He added: "An example of this would be a report of two 13-year-old boys pointing a handgun at cars.

Earlier this year the Examiner revealed there could be a terrifying number of weapons on this district's streets.

Inquiries revealed the number of illegal guns in the area could top 100 - and the armoury among criminals includes an AK47 assault rifle and, possibly, even grenades.

And this from an English town called Rochdale. Edited. Link We will kill you’ gun raid terror

MASKED gunmen threatened to kill the father of a celebrity chef while carrying out a terrifying robbery.

The balaclava-clad hoodlums held a shotgun to the heads of both men before grabbing thousands of pounds and their mobile phones.

[Petrovich]

but we're on the same side.

I surely hope that I didn’t imply other wise. If you got that impression, I apologize.

No....what I meant was as much as I like to argue; I can't find a single thing to argue with you about.

Hint.....hint.......

[airdog714]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great posts dude.

What can I say??? Man you make good points and a strong argument....but we're on the same side.

Some on here might try to argue with you on the drug thing. To a few forum members there shouldn't be any laws against drugs. They figure drugs should be legal and that would somehow make crime disappear.

I'm not gonna mention any names.

Petrovich,
Once there was a war on ALCOHOL. Now it is taxed and resticted to adults over the age of 21.
Today there is a war on drugs. Many people believe that this is a losing battle. That the manpower would be better served in other aspects of law-enforcement. That it should go the way of alcohol.

Just a thought; If a person wants to do drugs, does drugs, OD's on drugs and dies, PROBLEM SOLVED.

Saw DEA clip. Not impressed with qualified arrogance. Glad I'm not qualified, I like my feet.

airdog

[Wayne]

Preaching to the choir here Tither. You need to stump in the editorial pages. Good posting's though.

[ballistic]

Just a thought; If a person wants to do drugs, does drugs, OD's on drugs and dies, PROBLEM SOLVED.

It's an intoxicating thought. However, the overwhelming majority of OD's do not grace us by dying, at least not immediately. They end up at the ER draining vast quantities of time and medical resouces. They survive, some just barely, and then are released only to overindulge again, etc.

Would it be totally barbaric to treat repeat abusers automatically as d.n.r's (do not resuscitate)? I know, I know, the hospital and staff couldn't possibly operate the ER like a roach motel ("bugs check in but don't check out"). Just musing.