Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devices

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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

When Wayne LaPierre said on CBS’s Face the Nation that the ATF needed to “do its job” with respect to bump stocks, one wonders if he was asking the agency to turn thousands of law-abiding gun owners into outlaws. Because that, my friends, is exactly what is happening.

If you currently own a reciprocating stock you will soon be in possession of a machine gun. Unlawful possession of a machine gun is a crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison, according to the DOJ.

This is not a joke. Attorney General Jeff Sessions published a Notice for Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) last week. (I’ve embedded it below.) If made final, possessors of “bump-stock-type devices would be required to surrender, destroy, or otherwise render the devices permanently inoperable.”

To be abundantly clear there is no grandfather clause in the NPRM. In other words, this is confiscation on a national scale, folks.

SNIP

Plus, how do you not bristle at the way this whole saga unfolded?! NRA called for “additional regulations” back in October. Trump wasted no time and kicked the movement to ban these devices into high gear. There was no pause to consider the ramifications of the policy change. Even more frightening, Trump seemed enthusiastic about getting it done.

“By the way, bump stocks, we’re writing that out. I’m writing that out myself,” said president Trump in February. “I don’t care if Congress does it or not. I’m writing it out myself, OK.”

And we accused Obama of ruling by executive fiat.

What’s worse is that this NPRM became a reality despite two prior determinations from the ATF saying a bump stock was a “firearm part” and not a “machinegun”; an open letter from the agency’s association admitting that ATF didn’t have the authority to ban the device, only Congress had the power to; and overwhelming public opposition. Remember, when ATF requested public comment on the ban, 85 percent of the more than 32,000 submissions were anti-regulation.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by WhyNot »

32,000 total submissions in the latest comment period. As I stated in another recent thread, they were totally unprepared for that many comments on the 1st day of this comment period. 30,000 1st day, the Feds site crashed/ overloaded!!

Just the 1st day...
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by M-Quigley »

WhyNot wrote:32,000 total submissions in the latest comment period. As I stated in another recent thread, they were totally unprepared for that many comments on the 1st day of this comment period. 30,000 1st day, the Feds site crashed/ overloaded!!

Just the 1st day...
Do the comments make any difference in the outcome?
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by WhyNot »

You mean, in a POTUS ordered, he's already said he's going to ban, DoJ paper that gives all reasons why they have already made up their mind then oopsie, we forgot to ask the ppl for comments as if that actually makes a dif for already made up minds (kabuki theatre)?

No


Lawsuits do. Rest assured in a matter this large someone will file, a single owner, a manufacturing company, a rights organization, someone will file suit.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

M-Quigley wrote:Do the comments make any difference in the outcome?
It would be interesting if anyone could point to a proposed rule and then ....
"In light of overwhelming public comment from the people we are attempting to turn into felons, the AG/DOJ/ATF have decided to withdraw the proposal. People's comments made so much damned sense that we were convinced our effort to "enhance public safety" was outweighed by a thing called Liberty/Property Rights. We are now certain that the American People are better served by the previous administrations multiple rulings that these hunks of plastic are not firearms and do not pose that big a threat. Our bad. What were we thinking? Trust us when we make the next rule. Your vote counts. #DemocracyAtWork & Cue Lee Greenwood."
I doubt that it has ever occurred. Sounds like a story from the Onion or Babylon Bee.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by jeep45238 »

M-Quigley wrote:
WhyNot wrote:32,000 total submissions in the latest comment period. As I stated in another recent thread, they were totally unprepared for that many comments on the 1st day of this comment period. 30,000 1st day, the Feds site crashed/ overloaded!!

Just the 1st day...
Do the comments make any difference in the outcome?
For each properly formatted unique response with direct citations to issues within the proposal, they have to give a response.

This means that a mass form letter copy/pasted 300 times addressing one thing means they only have to respond to ONE of them.

Therefore to make them work on it, going through it line item at a time, and putting in the time to call out all erroneous problems, is the only way to force them to respond to all of it.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by WhyNot »

And that's just ^^ a beginning strategy , using their rules to benefit. Hey...I didn't write them that a way they did. Unless they have a rule whereas they can suspend the rule if its ''not convenient'' which wouldn't be a shocker either.

The primary reasoning to go with an agency determination vs. congressional action would appear to be two if not threefold. First, its clean ''I'm your Rep. , my hands aren't dirty.'' Second, it's quicker. The POTUS said he wants this allll done quickly. Third, the NRA was the 1st to mention it at all, figuring it would all go quickly and be a limited action not leeching into other 2A activities i.e. mag bans etc. Well that horsey left the barn with the FL shooting.

The ''tangled baitcaster effect'' really is the no compensation thingie they think they will get away with. They may actually get it off based on safety concerns, but then Bill Smith Main St USA will say, ''but you can't prove I was a problem, or will be a problem, therefore PAY ME.'' Looking at how other similar cases were handled where in fact compensation payment was made is a logical 1st step. Followed by request for comment period time extension...or...court action for same...
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

Ex President Obamais likely smiling. All we needed to get more gun control was to elect more Republicans. Without the promised concealed carry reciprocity, we now we have the Fix NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System) law that accomplishes little more than aggravating the problems already part of the NICS and at a significant expense. (Paying people to add rocks to a cart with a broken axle doesn’t fix anything.)

The Standard for Infringement is Not Automatic Fire

Now Republicans reaffirm that the Second Amendment can be infringed upon whenever the weapon approximates automatic fire. Anyone understanding and intending to uphold the purpose of the Second Amendment’s protection against a tyrannical government would also understand that the rifles used by the government’s military for more than fifty years must not be prohibited from the people.

Either there is no longer any such understanding, or the politicians do understand, but fear this purpose and want to neuter it.

Progressive Legislation from the Executive Branch Continues

Regardless of the Constitutional infringement, the ATF’s notice of proposed rulemaking to classify bump-fire stocks as machineguns is outside the clear provisions of statutory law and involve forcing a square peg in a round hole. These efforts require the ATF to bypass legislation, re-write history, re-define terms beyond any reasonable definition, endlessly repeat false statements, make inconsistent arguments, and then illogically jump from the new erroneous definitions to derive the desired and forgone conclusion they were directed to reach.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

Horowitz said his office identified “several significant deficiencies related to tracking and inventory of ammunition. For example, ammunition tracking records were understated by almost 31 thousand rounds at the 13 sites we audited. Given that ATF has over 275 offices, the number of unaccounted ammunition rounds is likely much higher.”

That raises a disconcerting question — does the ATF know how much ammunition is missing? If all 275 offices have unaccounted materiel at the rate of the 13 audited sites, that would equal more than 650,000 rounds. That’s a lot of bullets.

“When inventories are inaccurate,” Horowitz said, “there is increased risk that ammunition may be lost, stolen, or misplaced without detection.”

That also applies to explosives.

Despites the ATF’s generally strong control of explosives, inspectors could not find all the explosive material recorded on the agency’s log: “Therefore ATF cannot provide evidence that the explosives were not lost or stolen.”

If we were talking about a comparatively few missing paper clips in an area of otherwise strong controls, this wouldn’t be a problem. But even a few missing guns, explosives and bullets is serious business, particularly because this is a recurring situation with federal law enforcement.
We answer to these people?
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

Some people still think the Trump Administration will listen to reason and/or do the right thing on bump stocks.
Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) and Firearms Policy Foundation (FPF) have announced that their extensive, 923-page opposition comment was filed with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) regarding the agency’s proposed rulemaking to ban “bump-stock” devices. The FPC Comment and its 35 exhibits can be viewed online in their entirety at https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc-fpf- ... -stock-ban" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The FPC Comment in opposition was filed on the groups’ behalf by attorneys Joshua Prince and Adam Kraut of Firearms Industry Consulting Group (FICG) after President Trump directed Attorney General Jeff Sessions to use executive actions to unlawfully and unconstitutionally expand the scope of statutes to force the dispossession and destruction of legally-acquired property–without just compensation–and subject possibly more than 500,000 Americans to severe federal criminal penalties.

SNIP

The comment period for ATF rulemaking docket no. 2017R-22 will close on June 27, 2018, at midnight Eastern Daylight Time.

SUMMARY OF OPPOSITION ARGUMENTS

ATF’s Proposed Rulemaking (docket no. 2017R-22) is procedurally flawed and violates the Administrative Procedure Act (APA)
ATF’s proposed rule violates the Constitution in numerous ways, including:
I – Separation of Powers
I – Ex Post Facto Clause
Fundamental, individual right to keep and bear arms protected under the Second Amendment
Rights to due process, fair notice, and just compensation for the taking of property protected under the Fifth Amendment
ATF’s proposed rule exceeds its statutory authority
ATF’s proposed rule is arbitrary and capricious
ATF’s proposed rule is unconstitutionally vague
ATF failed to consider viable and precedential alternatives
ATF’s proposed rule is not supported by policy considerations
ATF’s proposed rule “should be withdrawn and summarily discarded, or, in the alternative, ATF should elect Alternative 1 and abandon the proposed rulemaking in its entirety.”
900+ pages? They are using Uncle Jerry's videos to demonstrate speed without a bump stock - HA!
How long was the US Constitution? The average Bible is 1200 pages!

Sessions/Trump are just gonna say "Oops, these guys were right, we was wrong! Our bad, nevermind!"
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

There are rumors in the firearms community of interest in filing suit challenging a final rule banning bump-stock-type devices. Domestic manufacturers of the devices would have an interest in challenging a ban because of the economic impact. Consumers who currently possess the devices and are required to destroy them or face criminal prosecution would also have standing to file suit. Finally, firearms industry groups and special interest groups representing sportsmen could participate in litigation challenging a regulation banning the devices.

Reviewing courts applying the arbitrary and capricious standard generally give significant deference to federal agencies. Federal courts will set aside a regulation only if there is a clear error of judgment, the agency failed to adequately explain its decision, or the decision clearly exceeds the scope of the statute. Plaintiffs challenging a bump-stock ban will likely have an uphill battle. Nonetheless, litigation challenging the regulation could result in a preliminary injunction that maintains the status quo and restrains ATF from implementing the regulation pending judicial review. If so, the Administration would be prevented from banning the devices until a court rules on the merits of the case.

Conclusion

The Department of Justice and ATF have expended considerable effort in rulemaking that will likely result in banning bump-stock-type devices. Once the final rule is effective, manufacturers of the devices may be driven out of business, as there is little or no interest in such devices by the military and law enforcement. Consumers who currently possess the devices will be required to destroy or surrender them by a specified date or risk criminal prosecution. The final rule will result in a significant economic impact on these parties.

The benefit, according to the Department of Justice, is enhanced public safety.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by Cobra5390 »

I am Confident that every member has doubts that a multimillionaire just put of the blue opened fire on the concert attendees with the use of a bump stock. Across the street from where the concert was held pilots were communicating with other planes to avoid a certain runway for there was an active shooter on the runway. The ATF Letter explains in detail as to why they are LEGAL, now are they going to make up some unreasonable reversal to their decision made years ago? Vegas shooting happened the week before Congress was going to introduce hearing protection which would have eliminated the $200 tax for suppressors. How coincidental that this happened, with all of the Corruption from the past administration makes one wonder. I write Senator Portman all the time and remind him that building the WALL would reduce the drugs coming into this country and since MS-13 gang members are Pelosi's best friends that Law Abiding Citizens will not give up their rights to possess FIREARMS, especially when the elected official's in DC permit criminals to move freely about this country killing CITIZENS, Rapeing Children, and are involved in sex trafficking.The Failure of the elected official's to protect its Citizens, is why we will protect our Families and selves!
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

Congressional Republicans, paralyzed as always on guns, couldn’t get themselves to act decisively. At the NRA’s urging, they turned it over to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which now is poised to ban bump stocks by rule. That’s not the same as passing a law. A rule can be undone, and it doesn’t make the unified statement from our elected leaders that the moment called for.


But at least it will get these deadly devices off the street. Democrats still are pushing for a legislative ban, but it’s going nowhere. Letting the bureaucrats do what politicians won’t is the latest testament to GOP cowardice on this issue. Like bump stocks themselves, congressional Republicans are looking more and more like a mere firearms accessory.

Nothing is going off the streets...
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

This leads to another problem for those intending to challenge any finalized rule ATF issues on banning “bump stock”-type devices.

“ATF did not disclose that they had not examined the firearms prior to promulgating the rule,” firearms designed and Historic Arms, LLC President Len Savage notes. “And now that the comment period is closed should they go forward with this rule under the Administrative Procedure Act that information can not be used in a court challenge because it was not submitted prior to closing of comments.

“DOJ is manipulating the APA to make sure that information will NOT be used to shoot down the rule,” Savage concludes. “Does ATF prosecute its firearms cases like it promulgates rules, without ever looking at the evidence? ATF is currently attempting to criminalize an industry and a large swath of the population and NEVER looked at any evidence? They claim they were ‘not allowed'? By whom?”
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by AzRanger »

If I remember correctly the NRA was backing making bumpstocks a class 3. Trump was doing what the NRA was for. He did not BAN anything, chill out!! :roll:
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