Paying for your Rights

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Paying for your Rights

Postby bignflnut » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:26 am

Two third of us live in those “shall-issue” states where we were issued 14 million permits to carry a concealed firearm in public. We paid to exercise that “right.” The state mandated fees and training requirements vary widely from state to state. States that imposed more hours of training also imposed high fees. Ordinary citizens responded to those costs in predictable ways. Millions of us were discouraged from legal concealed carry due to the costs and restrictions.

Politicians impose all kinds of requirements before citizens receive permission to carry a concealed firearm in public. The common excuse is public safety, and there is always another infringement that can be rationalized to make us safer. We paid over 4 billion dollars and spent over 65 million hours in class to receive our carry permits. We did this to exercise the human right to keep and bear arms. The burdensome fees and training requirements disarmed approximately 8 million US citizens. There is no evidence that these gun-control infringements actually reduce crime. More than twice as many of us would carry concealed if unrestricted carry, (also called constitutional carry) were the law of the land. The data indicates that the number of people carrying in unrestricted states is slightly over 10 percent of the population.


Many of us are content simply to acquire and keep our arms, but will not fight for the Right to Bear them when and where necessary. So we happily accept the fees and conditions placed upon our Rights.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:03 pm

Accept? No.
Tolerate, yes.

Happily? Okay, that one just makes me laugh.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby WY_Not » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:36 pm

bignflnut, just what would you suggest as a solution short of willful disobedience and violent resistance? I'd love to see even the barest of suggestions rather than simple links and excerpts.

As Robert A. Heinlein says, "I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby bignflnut » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:06 am

WY_Not wrote:bignflnut, just what would you suggest as a solution short of willful disobedience and violent resistance? I'd love to see even the barest of suggestions rather than simple links and excerpts.


WY, I have no quarrel with you. I would not advocate violent resistance aside from a last resort. We haven't even begun to attempt to overturn the current state of affairs. We've accepted and internalized the lies that have set this mold. How many even decry it? We were told that we could incrementally walk towards "something better", and some claim that we have. Without getting into the weeds of the issue, the pro-life crowd has been "fighting" for 40 years, and to what effect? How long do we accept these restrictions? Incrementalism doesn't work towards Rights, it works in opposition to Rights. But we've been sold a series of lies.

I'll happily offer suggestions.

Please note, in the privacy of your own mind, how quickly you dismiss the suggestions you have requested.

Short answer is that we need to challenge the presuppositions that have placed us in our current state. So, which supposition do you think would most profitably be challenged?

There are laws and/or court opinions that establish Concealed Carry as a a privilege (as opposed to a Right). This whole mess stems from DICTA in Robertson v. Baldwin 165 U.S. 275 (1897) (between Page 165 U. S. 281 and Page 165 U. S. 282) Civics 101 notes that court opinions aren't law, Legislatures can overrule court opinions.

Governments are established to protect our Rights, but privileges aren't Rights, and are subject to endless revision/fine-tuning*. We need government officials to challenge these "established" falsehoods and fight for their posterity's, if not our, Rights. (The rule of law should apply equally to all peoples at all locations, should it not? Do Rights begin and end at the property line of various establishments? ) This seems unlikely as we have "pro-RKBA" groups that accept exemptions for government officials, NICS, licensing, and claim endless revision/fine tuning* is a victory that they utilize to boost fund-raising.

Void laws that are in direct violation of the Ohio Constitution (the highest law in the State): "The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power." Ohio Const. art. I, S 4 (Do you want to discuss the proper role of the militia and how that would solve many of our ills?)

* Factors include, criminal history, location (parking lot, motor vehicle, airport, school, government building, hospital, alcohol serving restaurant, etc), medication schedule, military service, etc...and hey, let's define loaded firearm...

I appreciate/agree that there's a broken record factor to many of these stories. In the beginning, these stories were dismissed as one-off or conspiracy fodder. As time has marched on, more and more predictions have yielded more stories, adding validity to the severity of our plight. If we passively accept the status quo, what changes will be affected for increasing our Rights? Somebody has to call for a higher standard, for anyone to strive towards it. If people on "our side" can't stomach a bit of criticism as they sidle up to the Swamp People, are we on the same side?

By now, almost everyone has tuned out to the concept of challenging the presuppositions that are the foundation of our sad state. So, let me hear how the current trajectory is FAR better, and the overwhelming progress that has been made, being ever fearful of how we could be charged believing self-defense is more important than compliance with endless scenarios.
Last edited by bignflnut on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby WY_Not » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:13 am

I'm not arguing or disagreeing with any of that. And post wasn't aimed at you per se, but rather at the post style. I'd just rather see posts that actually contain some content rather than simply a link and a brief (and generally) incendiary quote.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby bignflnut » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:30 am

You shoot what you aim at. I assert that we're aiming at the wrong goal, while singing songs declaring how free and liberated we are as a people. We say that America is special because of the freedom our system of government affords the citizen. There's a disconnect between what we preach and what we are living. Liberty isn't exactly on the march, as this article demonstrates, is it?

The Ohio Statehouse is littered with people carrying the R banner. There is simply no reason to accept failure.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby 147Doc » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:47 pm

WY_Not wrote:...I'd just rather see posts that actually contain some content rather than simply a link and a brief (and generally) incendiary quote.


I'm a mod on another forum, and we have a "No link and run" rule. If you think it's important, stop and tell us why!
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby ashtabula » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:28 am

Once one has resigned himself to the fact he will be required to pay for a right , he should next determine the value. A license now cost $67.00 for five years, with all of the restrictions. How much more if any would you be willing to pay for a license with no restrictions, say to the level of an on duty LEO? I'm just curious if anyone would pay and if so, how much.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby WestonDon » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:30 pm

ashtabula wrote:Once one has resigned himself to the fact he will be required to pay for a right , he should next determine the value. A license now cost $67.00 for five years, with all of the restrictions. How much more if any would you be willing to pay for a license with no restrictions, say to the level of an on duty LEO? I'm just curious if anyone would pay and if so, how much.


That's a good question. One I don't have an answer for. $67.00/five years is arguably affordable for any semi competent adult. Even one on the dole. Substitute right to vote for right to carry and you'll have your answer.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby ashtabula » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:42 am

"Substitute right to vote for right to carry and you'll have your answer" WestonDon, sorry I don't follow, could you explain further?
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby WestonDon » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:56 pm

ashtabula wrote:"Substitute right to vote for right to carry and you'll have your answer" WestonDon, sorry I don't follow, could you explain further?


I m sure you are aware of the recent controversy in some states (Texas I believe is a prime example) about requiring a government issued ID in order to vote. One of the major arguments by those opposed to requiring an ID to vote was that having to pay any kind of a fee for a state issued ID amounted to a poll tax. Something the supreme court long ago ruled to be unconstitutional. I don't have the case info nor am I inclined to look it up.

The point being that not all rights are deemed to be of equal importance depending on whose ox is being gored. A situation I strongly disagree with.

EDIT: After thinking about this for a while I think you deserve a more direct answer to your question. The answer for me is I would not be willing to pay more for special privileges. Not that I like the current license fee, I do believe it is reasonable to cover administrative expenses involved.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby JustaShooter » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:17 am

WestonDon wrote:The answer for me is I would not be willing to pay more for special privileges.


You already are, if you have a CHL...

WestonDon wrote:Not that I like the current license fee, I do believe it is reasonable to cover administrative expenses involved.


There shouldn't be any administrative expenses involved because there shouldn't be a license required to exercise our right in the first place. (And, to be clear, the current fee *more* than covers the administrative expenses involved as I understand it, allowing them to add the excess to their budget.)

My preference would be elimination of the license requirement (but continuing the licensing option for reciprocity) and decriminalization of gun-free zones.
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby ashtabula » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:34 am

WestonDon, thanks for the explanation. I think if they took the lawyer's fees for that case, they may well have had the funds to purchase ids for those who didn't already have them.

There is a huge problem with going to the politicians for relief on gun restrictions, http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-owne ... ate-2015-7, as you can see in Ohio we are a small minority.Keep in mind that 20% is the number of gun owners, I suspect the number of no training, no permit, unrestricted carry would be less. The only reason they pay any attention is we are vocal and we vote. Does OFCC do registration at the gun shows?

Another huge problem is the schools. Without some other experience at home or a club, a student graduating today will equate guns with the plague. Our 20% will only decline. Why is there no safety training in the early years, or ccw training in the high school years? After 12 years in an environment of guns are so horrible that even a photo or facsimile of one will require your removal, you will be hard-pressed to change the mind set instilled. Perhaps attending school board meetings?
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Re: Paying for your Rights

Postby M-Quigley » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:29 pm

WestonDon wrote:
ashtabula wrote:Once one has resigned himself to the fact he will be required to pay for a right , he should next determine the value. A license now cost $67.00 for five years, with all of the restrictions. How much more if any would you be willing to pay for a license with no restrictions, say to the level of an on duty LEO? I'm just curious if anyone would pay and if so, how much.


That's a good question. One I don't have an answer for. $67.00/five years is arguably affordable for any semi competent adult. Even one on the dole. Substitute right to vote for right to carry and you'll have your answer.


$67 is a bargain for shall issue is a bargain compared to the pre licensing (prudent person) days, when you had to have a special reason to carry (ie carrying lots of money or be politically connected) and even if you did have a good reason, you risked getting arrested, put in jail, and spend $$$$ on bail and a lawyer. Granted, common sense improvements to the licensing system have been glacier like, but at least new legislation has been going in the right direction instead of backward, like the antis would want. Perhaps NOhio will someday have constitutional carry.
(after every state surrounding us gets it. :( )

As far as comparing it to the right to vote, I consider voting very important, but I don't carry just to exercise my rights. I've already been the (attempted) victim of an armed robbery once, and used a gun to defend myself. At the time, I wasn't thinking about politics. :roll:
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