OhioCCW Forums Changes

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pleasantguywhopacks
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by pleasantguywhopacks »

TunnelRat wrote:
djthomas wrote: As someone else said if there's a concern about the ability of moderators to adequately police the forums given that most moderators are also coordinators, then consider appointing a few folks who strictly moderate.
A large part of the problem of moderating our forums is getting the cooperation of the members. You might be surprised at the volume of bitter, vituperative PMs the mods have to put up with.

Some folks tend to abuse our forums, posting constant negative comments, snide remarks, and uncalled for criticisms. There are even those who like to use the OFCC forums to condemn the organization itself. This gives us a bad image. Yet for the most part, the moderators let pretty much anything stand so long as it isn't a personal attack, blasphemous, illegal, or blatantly vulgar.

We would do well to keep in mind that OFCC is not the forums, and the forums are not OFCC. These forums are offered by OFCC as one of our services to our members. Thus, we try to maintain a family-friendly atmosphere so our members can carry on positive discussions with regard to firearms, equipment, rights, reloading, sales, legislation, and much, much more. It's a good way for many of our members to keep in touch.

However, most of what OFCC does takes place off the forums, and behind the scenes. The changes we've instituted have been made with our primary goals in mind.
Let's be realistic. With out the forums this organization would cease to exist in its current form. With out this format there would be zero communication from above other than the very limited communication that exists now..That is the very nature of the beef a lot of members have. We get no communication then we get some edict dumped on us. I can't see how that isn't being seen as a concern. We don't' need surprises to keep us engaged in the effort. I appreciate an open flow of honest communication. I don't feel this is unreasonable. Quite frankly TR I do not feel we are given honesty at times from the top.

I still support the basic idea of OFCC and I will continue to do the things I have agreed to do promote its work because it, CC, is a part of the basic firearms freedom issue I support along with a lot of other liberty issues, but I will continue to feel betrayed and manipulated on the issues being discussed here in this thread.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by AlanM »

pleasantguywhopacks wrote:
TunnelRat wrote: We would do well to keep in mind that OFCC is not the forums, and the forums are not OFCC. These forums are offered by OFCC as one of our services to our members. Thus, we try to maintain a family-friendly atmosphere so our members can carry on positive discussions with regard to firearms, equipment, rights, reloading, sales, legislation, and much, much more. It's a good way for many of our members to keep in touch.

However, most of what OFCC does takes place off the forums, and behind the scenes. The changes we've instituted have been made with our primary goals in mind.
Let's be realistic. With out the forums this organization would cease to exist in its current form. With out this format there would be zero communication from above other than the very limited communication that exists now..That is the very nature of the beef a lot of members have. We get no communication then we get some edict dumped on us. I can't see how that isn't being seen as a concern. We don't' need surprises to keep us engaged in the effort. I appreciate an open flow of honest communication. I don't feel this is unreasonable. Quite frankly TR I do not feel we are given honesty at times from the top.

I still support the basic idea of OFCC and I will continue to do the things I have agreed to do promote its work because it, CC, is a part of the basic firearms freedom issue I support along with a lot of other liberty issues, but I will continue to feel betrayed and manipulated on the issues being discussed here in this thread.
For, probably, the first time for me.
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You said what just occurred to me and did it with a lot more tact than I probably would have.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by dirtdawg »

Since this seems like a general weigh-in on the topic, I suppose (as a dues paying member and occasional volunteer) I may as well participate. :)

I have read every post in this thread, but perhaps a little late (it looks like many posts have been heavily edited, and/or deleted, and/or modded). I admit, some posts I more or less scanned, but most were carefully reviewed. I think the changes to the forum in themselves may may not cause quite the heartburn that the overall negative sentiment seems to indicate. I don't mean that there is a overall negative sentiment in the responses, I am only referring to the negative sentiment expressed here. I will admit, political discussion is of significant interest to me and is one of the reasons I check in on a frequent basis. I may not post a whole lot, but when I do, I try to keep it relevant and up to the standards of this audience- which seems to be higher than some other forums I visit.

However, there seems to be a legitimate gripe expressed in this thread and that is one that relates to the OFCC Organization itself. I joined this organization to express my support and gratitude for the mission and successes of OFCC. I joined the forum to educate myself. There is no better source of information on the legal and practical aspects of carrying handguns available. However, in becoming a member, I violated my typical standard of reviewing the bylaws, financials, and board members prior to joining.

Most organizations I participate in have a more transparent operational structure which includes an annual membership meeting where bylaws are amended and where the open seats on the Board of Directors are filled through a general membership election. (granted- nominees are usually offered by the BOD)

This is something I see lacking at OFCC and I would speculate that this is, at least in part, a source of some of the hurt feelings expressed in this thread. Perhaps I shouldn't speculate on others' motives, but instead state that, for myself, this aspect leaves something to be desired. :cry:
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by djthomas »

TunnelRat wrote:We would do well to keep in mind that OFCC is not the forums, and the forums are not OFCC.
That may well be the intent but that's not how the world sees it. I know from experience that when an organization, be it a company or a government agency, hears from OFCC they are going to do their due diligence to see who the heck this group is. That means they are going to grab every bit of information they can. First stop is the organization's website and second stop is to follow all the links which will lead one right to these forums. To the people that matter what is said on these forums is OFCC, disclaimers to the contrary notwithstanding.

Like I explained in a previous post, OFCC contacted a place I once worked and requested that they take their signs down. Other than me nobody had ever heard of the organization. When you're a big company activist demands are a dime a dozen so it's essential to know who you're dealing with before changing policies at the first sign of complaint. After reviewing the main website the security analyst spent almost an entire day trolling the forums to get a feel for what the group is, whether they seem to be rabble-rousers, how many members there are, and most importantly if the members are the kinds of people the company wants to do business with.

I can assure you that other than a letter signed by Jeff, these forums and what was contained within made up 90% of what went into the OFCC assessment profile delivered to the board for their decision. We'd be naive to assume that it's not like this at any other place that hears from OFCC. Like it or not as a public presence these forums are inseparable from the organization itself.
Last edited by djthomas on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by paazig »

I'll keep it short. I'm a member simply because I wanted to support what I see that this organization has done and support what I hope it will do into the future. However, I have no idea how the leadership of this organization communicates with it's membership in a meaningful way. I see plenty of communication. It's just not clear how coherently it is compiled and used to guide the organization based upon membership desires. This forum, regardless of how structured, hasn't cleared that up for me. You can see I don't post here often. Quite frankly I never felt a significant feeling of belonging.

That being stated, the changes being communicated here won't affect me.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by schmieg »

JediSkipdogg wrote:I just noticed another recent detriment to one of the changes on here. It has been said by the coordinators/board that they don't like it when new people come on here just to post a gun. Therefore they are implementing that one must be a supporter to do so. I think that is going to actually cost the organization members and supporters. If I am looking around for a gun to sell and I happen upon here I'll think cool, a forum to post and sell it on. But nope, I have to pay $25 to sell that gun. It appears a $500 gun on gunbroker would cost $13. So which am I going to do, join an organization I just found online with no clue about them and pay $25 to sell it or pay $13 on gunbroker? I use to love reading XD Talk and wanted to post on there till I saw they needed a 25 post limit to even post guns. Instantly sent me the other way. Just something else to think about.
There are a number of problems when someone comes in just to post a for sale ad. One of them is that until the person has posted at least five messages, he can't receive PM's. That may seem like a minimal requirement, but many of these guys just post the ad and then wait for an email telling them there is an answer. This poses some problems

Another is that we have no idea who the poster is when they just come in and post an ad. Requiring membership provides at least some degree of protection to the potential buyers. It's not a guarantee, of course, but at least we have some contact information. Buying from an unknown is a bit like buying on Craig's List. You never know what the real intent is.

I've purchased a number of items, both firearms and ammuntion and other items, here, but always from someone whose ID I recognize from posts in other parts of the forum. With the exception of Bear when I picked up the items at his house, all of these transactions took place in a parking lot somewhere. I felt a lot more comfortable having had some contact with the person beforehand, even if it was just reading various posts.

Also, I want to point out that, contrary to statements in several messages here, that discussions about OC have not been prohibitied. The only real limitation is the posting of meetings or public activities. These are not prohibited, but merely require clearance before the posting. This may pose a bit of difficulty for setting up Meet & Greets, but not much. If you want to meet another member at Wendy's tomorrow at lunch, that doesn't really come under the definition of a Meet & Greet as I see it; it's only when you want to have a group function that may be seen as OFCC approved by those who peruse these forums with intent to work against us.

Whether we, as members, or OFCC, as an organization, like it or not, these forums are seen as an expression of the organization. The perception others garner from perusing here can work to the organization's benefit or detriment. OFCC has gained respect in the political and law enforcement community and that respect can be damaged if the forums are allowed to go too far afield. We, as members, should be sensitive to that reality and act accordingly.

I doubt that, in the long run, there will be really too much change here as a result of the new rules. I think that we should see how things go and, if problems arise, contact the moderators and/or coordinators with constructive suggestions at that point.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by jgarvas »

dirtdawg wrote: Most organizations I participate in have a more transparent operational structure which includes an annual membership meeting where bylaws are amended and where the open seats on the Board of Directors are filled through a general membership election. (granted- nominees are usually offered by the BOD)
I think this is one of the most misunderstood facts about OFCC because we've never yet had to hold an election. Initially, the bylaws protected the founding members for a set duration of years, but that time has come and gone. Since then, nobody showed an interest or backed out before an election took place, leaving the incumbent to fill their spot, or allowing us to appoint someone to a vacancy once. (Which resulted in Dan White becoming a director)

We've been vetting nominees for an election already, but I don't have anything to report here on that topic. It's important to realize that in the past, when the organization put a call out for nominees in our official publication (the newsletter), no interest was received. In those years, the election was waived in accordance with the bylaws because it was uncontested, and the incumbent was re-seated.

When people realize the effort needed to be on the board, most of them completely shy away from the obligation of stepping into Dan White's shoes, or mine for that matter. We've finally found some people who we believe are a) qualified to be committed long term and b) completely interested in the position, so the prospects of an election taking place are there. Which creates the complexity of how we're going to do it - we've never had to hold one yet!
This is something I see lacking at OFCC and I would speculate that this is, at least in part, a source of some of the hurt feelings expressed in this thread. Perhaps I shouldn't speculate on others' motives, but instead state that, for myself, this aspect leaves something to be desired. :cry:
We're trying to figure out the logistics of an election right now. So hopefully those hurt feelings will soon be mended, but I doubt they will be. I think too often people who are members fail to realize that the overall membership of OFCC is not represented here in the forums. Those who are members and happen to use the forums represent but a very very small percentage of the overall membership as a whole, so to believe that we "do business" on the forums would be foolish.

We use the forums for raising awareness of events, issues, litigation, etc. But we don't come here to do 100% of our membership related business in front of the public eye - especially in light of the political nature of our organization and the desire of our opponents to take advantage of our forthcoming nature should we do that type of thing.
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Contrary to a popular belief when I brag about OFCC accomplishments I'm not looking for your thank you or personal recognition. I'd much prefer you send me an email telling me when you are going to get involved in doing what I've been doing since 1999. We are only as effective as we make ourselves. We need the next generation of OFCC to step to the plate.

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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by jgarvas »

pleasantguywhopacks wrote: Let's be realistic. With out the forums this organization would cease to exist in its current form.
Maybe to the fraction of our membership who use the forums, that might be true, because they only see the forums. Technically, our official publication is the newsletter (which hasn't been published since Dan left) -- the main website of our organization is OhioCCW.org and our official alerts on the Ohio Gun Owner Alert Mailing list are how we keep in touch with substantially more people than are actively on the forums.

So I would disagree with your position that the forums are OFCC. They're not - they're just a community discussion environment that is technically open to the general public - the fact that someone has a site supporter logo next to them garners them no special treatment with respect to moderation. Its just a "badge of honor" to say to the rest of the forums "I'm supporting this place... Are you?"
With out this format there would be zero communication from above other than the very limited communication that exists now..That is the very nature of the beef a lot of members have. We get no communication then we get some edict dumped on us. I can't see how that isn't being seen as a concern. We don't' need surprises to keep us engaged in the effort. I appreciate an open flow of honest communication. I don't feel this is unreasonable. Quite frankly TR I do not feel we are given honesty at times from the top.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the forums. They're here for the general public / community to enjoy within the limitations that we defined in our "Terms of Service" -- terms of service meaning if you don't like the terms of service you're free to not use the service. This aspect of our website is not run by the membership, its run by the organization. You can't call up NRA News and insist that as an NRA Life Member you should get to talk about a topic of your choosing. The NRA News producers choose what is discussed there.

The Site Supporter logo is there to encourage people to join and to show who is helping pay the bills for the forums. There are no "members only" areas of the forums here -- nobody is lying to you either. The "edict" is that we want professional discourse here as opposed to some of the less than professional discourse that has taken place lately. This isn't an issue of member vs. non-member.
I still support the basic idea of OFCC and I will continue to do the things I have agreed to do promote its work because it, CC, is a part of the basic firearms freedom issue I support along with a lot of other liberty issues, but I will continue to feel betrayed and manipulated on the issues being discussed here in this thread.
I'm sorry you feel that way - but the forums came along long after Ohioans For Concealed Carry was formed as a replacement to our mailing list "ccw-talk" -- I'm sorry if you feel that the forums are operated at the whim of .01% of the membership that happens to use them, but that isn't the case and likely never will be. The organization has stated goals and purposes, none of which consist of running the forums as a free for all opportunity for people to post whatever they wish.

Too many people seem to think that who and what you see here is OFCC - but the fact is there is a huge membership base beyond the active posting community.

What is said here is read by many people - from elected officials considering Restaurant Carry legislation right now, to the police chief or law director who receives 10-15 emails one morning because of some thread that started here bashing his or her city about their possibly accidental actions created a storm of angry foaming at the mouth emails. All of these behaviors, on behalf of individuals here regardless of membership status or not, impact our organization's standing and reputation among people we need to work with to be effective at our stated goals.

Therefor, we will take the actions necessary to curtail the behavior that is impacting our ability to work as professionals at achieving our stated legislative and/or litigative goals, even if that means we need to terminate accounts here or more aggressively moderate the content of posts that are detrimental to our cause.
Jeff Garvas, President
Ohioans For Concealed Carry

Contrary to a popular belief when I brag about OFCC accomplishments I'm not looking for your thank you or personal recognition. I'd much prefer you send me an email telling me when you are going to get involved in doing what I've been doing since 1999. We are only as effective as we make ourselves. We need the next generation of OFCC to step to the plate.

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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by Redfestiva »

jgarvas wrote:

I'm sorry you feel that way - but the forums came along long after Ohioans For Concealed Carry was formed as a replacement to our mailing list "ccw-talk" -- I'm sorry if you feel that the forums are operated at the whim of .01% of the membership that happens to use them, but that isn't the case and likely never will be.
When put that way it makes one feel rather insignificent. :?
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by jabeatty »

jgarvas wrote:Maybe to the fraction of our membership who use the forums, that might be true, because they only see the forums.
jgarvas wrote:I'm sorry if you feel that the forums are operated at the whim of .01% of the membership that happens to use them, but that isn't the case and likely never will be.
Jeff, that math just doesn't work. Can you correct that percentage before the conversation goes further?
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by BuckJM53 »

To the OFCC Staff & Directors ... I for one appreciate you stepping up to the plate (and taking the heat) and am very encouraged by what I personally consider to be very positive changes with the new guidelines (IMHO they have been needed for a while). While I don't post here frequently, I am a frequent reader and have often been concerned (and in some instances embarrassed for the organization :oops:) by some of the topics, conversations and rants that have appeared on this forum. While based on the 16 pages of comments, there will be a few regular participants that will likely choose to go elsewhere, in the grand scheme of things we will all be better off because of the changes.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by bignflnut »

I can appreciate the zeal and the accomplishments of the OFCC leadership and how they're genuinely offended when Statehouse folks / LEO's (jgarvas bottom page 15) express dismay over the way things look on the boards. I'm sure that this is rather personal to many, which is why they're so quick to challenge what someone has done "for the cause". (Clearly they've done more than you have, so pipe down.)

You are OFCC and we are you? That's the entire point of these modifications, that a lack of control has negatively impacted the "reputation" of OFCC and therefore the leadership. This is an effort to change that (which has been spelled out in the numerous "clarification" statements). Control over the green names is reasonable, but controlling the members and non-members is impossible. Taking the ball and going home seems the only option if "something must be done".

If you are offended and want your money back, you should feel free to request that instead of " a cooling off period " .

"Dissent will bring disassociation" seems to be the motto. This is all couched in a legal liability setting, but is really more about PR as elected officials are watching. Seems one could make the case that this open and honest discussion could allow elected officials a window into the electorate, and be a valuable service to them in that capacity.

The mods and the leadership don't care for me to be here posting as I do. They've made that rather plain and personal (calls of ignore the troll to "foe" him). I encourage them to moderate me. It's happened before and I've complied with clear directives. If the elected folk don't like what's being said, have them set up a dummy avatar and dive in! "It doesn't require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires to people's minds." — Samuel Adams

I agree with the previous comments that have said if we're not allowed to comment on the current events of the day (be they firearms related or not), interest will decline. But, since many have attempted to discredit me with the label "conspiracy theorist", this too shall fall on some deaf ears.

I genuinely hope that the Statehouse officials and LEO's realize how much influence they have exacted on the leadership and further that this action does result in the quid pro quo that the leadership desires (not that this would teach the proper principle). Otherwise, it's cutting off ones nose to spite its face.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by Rhino »

pleasantguywhopacks wrote:With out this format there would be zero communication from above other than the very limited communication that exists now.
That is actually a point the leadership may want to address. I confess to not having a perfect memory, but I don't recall ever getting any management communication from OFCC that wasn't through this forum. Is there a lack of communication that needs to be addressed or do I possibly have a member/profile setting somewhere that needs to be changed? There is no member section on the main site that I can find, so this forum gives the appearance of being the only avenue available for communication between management and members. If the forum membership is truly not representative of OFCC membership as a whole, it would probably behoove OFCC to set up some sort of communication/connection avenue with the rest of that membership.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by pleasantguywhopacks »

Rhino wrote:
pleasantguywhopacks wrote:With out this format there would be zero communication from above other than the very limited communication that exists now.
That is actually a point the leadership may want to address. I confess to not having a perfect memory, but I don't recall ever getting any management communication from OFCC that wasn't through this forum. Is there a lack of communication that needs to be addressed or do I possibly have a member/profile setting somewhere that needs to be changed? There is no member section on the main site that I can find, so this forum gives the appearance of being the only avenue available for communication between management and members. If the forum membership is truly not representative of OFCC membership as a whole, it would probably behoove OFCC to set up some sort of communication/connection avenue with the rest of that membership.
Sure you do, you get an email when they want you to show up for something important or call your legislators for something important or complain to the bank when the OFCC bank gets posted... :wink:
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by Rhino »

pleasantguywhopacks wrote:Sure you do, you get an email when they want you to show up for something important or call your legislators for something important or complain to the bank when the OFCC bank gets posted... :wink:
No, I don't. All I get from OFCC are notifications of new PMs in my Inbox. At least, that's all I remember getting and that's all I can find in my email program. Maybe I have something set wrong somewhere.
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The Constitution shall never be construed … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.
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