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Toughen bail for gun crimes, Toronto's mayor suggests
By TERRY WEBER
Tuesday, August 30, 2005 Updated at 1:25 PM EDT
Globe and Mail Update
Bail conditions for gun offences should be toughened up so those arrested with illegal firearms are treated as harshly as those who use them to commit a crime, the mayor of Canada's biggest city said Tuesday.
Toronto Mayor David Miller told reporters after a meeting with federal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler that offenders that there's only one reason people have illegal guns and the law needs to reflect that.
"If you're arrested for possession of an illegal gun, you should be treated exactly the same way" as if the weapon were used, he said.
"There's only one reason to have an illegal gun, it's to shoot people."
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Gun violence has become a hot-button issue in Toronto after a rash of summer shootings on the streets of Canada's largest city. Police have been critical of the system, which they say too easily lets those charged with gun crimes back out on the streets.
This week, Toronto police announced the arrest of an alleged drug dealer who was caught with a loaded gun. He was out on bail after being arrested in the spring on weapons charges.
"As far as I'm concerned the justice system has to treat those kinds of crime very seriously," he said.
"There's a small number of people here who are using these guns to commit crimes. When they catch them, they got to stay in jail."
Responding to questions on penalties for gun-related offences, Mr. Cotler said Canada's Criminal Code already has more mandatory minimum sentences for gun offences than almost any other category of crime — something, he added, most people aren't aware of.
"There are more mandatory sentences with respect to gun-related crimes than almost any other genre of crimes in the Criminal Code," Mr. Cotler told reporters.
"We have, for example, mandatory minimums of four years; maximum 14 years for ten of the most serious categories offences — attempted murder, murder, manslaughter, robbery and the like."
"So mandatory minimums are in place and as I say, there are more crimes that are the object of mandatory minimums related to gun-related crimes than almost any other genre of criminality."
Mr. Miller, meanwhile, also noted that jail sentences aren't necessarily the final answer to Toronto's gun problems, noting that issues like the importation of illegal weapons from the United States and programs aimed at keeping young people out of trouble were also addressed during Tuesday's meeting.
"We know that if we invest in young people and get to young people before they get involved in the gun and gang culture, we will have a very effective impact on reducing crime," he said.
"We also spoke about the need to address the issue of handguns and handguns from the United States and the availability of handguns in general in Toronto."
The latest rash of gun-related offences in the city, he added, are being committed by "a small number of people who have access to handguns."
"We don't want handguns in our city and we're going to work closely with the federal government to do what we can to get them off the streets," he said.
The suggestion of stiffer bail conditions met with mixed response from members of Canada's legal community.
Cindy Wasser, chair of the criminal branch of the Canadian Bar Association, said bail conditions are always at the discretion of the court and any effort to legislate how bail conditions are imposed would likely be met with a challenge under the constitution.
However, she also said, given the current political climate, she can foresee a day when the courts start imposing tougher conditions on release for weapons offenses, much the same way that the courts began dealing more harshly with domestic violence years earlier in the wake of public outcry.
"The judges will become more aware of the need to deter generally in the public eye," she said. "Hopefully, they get through to these kids."
Still, she said, in her view stiffer penalties aren't necessarily going to deter gang-related offenders because they're "too tough to care."
"The deterrence effect has never worked for gangs," she said. "They are what they are. They're too tough to be deterred."
British Columbia criminal lawyer Greg Delbigio also said a danger exists if the flexibility judges now have when it comes to bail conditions is taken away.
"If the Criminal Code were to be amended to impose certain bail requirements, it must be understood that that would apply as law across Canada," he said.
"What may be appropriate in Toronto may not be in Tofino, British Columbia. The benefit of a flexible approach is it permits the judge to take into account local conditions which might be aggravating to the particular case and to address that through the order."
But Toronto Police Association president David Wilson says his group supports both the idea of tougher bail conditions and automatic jail terms for those caught with illegal firearms.
"We would be supportive of the position that there should be stricter bail for anyone in possession of a weapon and we would feel that position doesn't go far enough in that it needs to extend to that anyone in possession of an illegal weapon should have an automatic jail sentence," he said in an interview.
Right now, he said, the entire bail review system needs to be reviewed.
"The number one objective that has to come first is that people have to be protected," he said. "People who have these weapons have to be taken off the street and it needs to be dealt with as a serious offence."
Once that has happened, he said, issues like rehabilitation and deterrence can be dealt with.
Gun control in Toronto
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Gun control in Toronto
TunnelRat
"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago
When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago
When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
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butt holes searched my vehicle last time I went across the border. Headed up with the family to see the falls for the day. No NRA bumper stickers or the like... but 4X4 pickup with mud tires, CB antenna, Grizzly Adams lookin guy driving (oh that's me)... can we say profiling for gun owners? Kids wanted to know "what are they looking for daddy". Had thought about staying at a motel and letting the wife do some shopping, but drove back across the border and stayed in NY state. Went to the Cleveland Sport show the next day instead.
WAS NOT PACKIN...well not a gun anyway !
WAS NOT PACKIN...well not a gun anyway !
Freedom isn't free!