While discussing JBTs and a return to the "Bad Ol' Days

[Scott]

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/harryt_19991029.html
A Speech by
Lt. Harry Thomas, Cincinnati Police Division
Fountain Square, Cincinnati, Ohio
February 27, 1994


"Welcome to the People's Republic of Cincinnati!

As usual, since I am speaking publicly, I must make the following disclaimer: I am not speaking to you as an official spokesman or representative of the Cincinnati Police Division. If I don't say that, I'm liable to have visitors waiting for me when I get back to work.

For the past 21 years, I have been a member of the Cincinnati Police Division. On three occasions, I have sworn a solemn oath; once when I was promoted from cadet to patrolman, once when I was promoted from patrolman to sergeant, and yet again when I was promoted from sergeant to lieutenant. That oath was to support the Constitution of the United States of America.

I have buried almost a dozen of my fellow police officers who died defending that oath. The last one died right before my eyes in the major trauma room of University Hospital. I signed the receipt for his body so that he could be transported to the morgue. I think about those men often, and I think about what they died for. And that is why I become furiously angry when I see our Constitution, the most remarkable document ever written in the course of human existence, being used as toilet paper at every level of government.

The Brady Bill is now a reality. For the first time in the history of our country, American citizens must request the government's permission to exercise a constitutional right. And if the government sees its way clear to grant permission, we must wait 5 days to exercise that right.

But even this is not enough to please our keepers in Sodom-by-the-Potomac. Gun laws are not being passed quickly enough to suit our federal law enforcement agencies, so they have formulated their own plan to discourage gun ownership.

In Ruby Ridge, Idaho, Sammy Weaver, age 14, the son of Randy Weaver, a man who had taken his family to the mountains to escape the tyranny of a government run amok, was hunting in the forest near the Weaver cabin with his dog. He wasn't the only person hunting in the forest that day. Sammy Weaver was ambushed and fatally shot in the back by two United States Marshals. And lest anyone accuse the U.S. Marshals of not being thorough in the performance of their assigned tasks, I would point out that they also shot the dog, also in the back.

Later, Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife and the mother of the Weaver children, opened the door of the Weaver cabin to admit her husband, who had been in a nearby shed to visit the body of his son. Vicki Weaver was holding her 10 month old infant daughter in her arms. That proved to be only a slight inconvenience to FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, as he shot Vicki Weaver through the head. She fell dead to the floor, her skull exploded, still clutching her daughter in her lifeless arms. It would appear that it is now a capital offense to be the son, wife, or dog of a gun owner.

Waco. "Waco" is a word which, among American patriots, engenders the same anguished feelings of outrage as the word "Alamo." Last year at the NRA Convention in Nashville, my wife and I returned to our hotel room and flipped on CNN to see the latest developments in Waco. The Branch Davidian compound was burning. My wife cried. She knew that there were many children in that compound. She asked me why. Why are they burning the compound? I told her the simple truth: They have to burn it. Has anyone here seen and read the Waco search warrant affidavit? It's crap. It didn't establish enough probable cause to even knock on the Branch Davidian's door.

When the FBI took over from the BATF (which some people say actually stands for Burn All Toddlers First), they knew that they would find no illegal weapons in the Branch Davidian compound. They were between a rock and a hard place. 4 ATF men dead, an unknown number of Branch Davidians dead, the FBI had only one choice: destroy the compound so that no one could ever prove whether illegal weapons were present or not.

For hours, the FBI pumped supposedly non-lethal CS gas into the compound. Those of us in law enforcement and the military know differently. CS gas, in high concentrations in an enclosed area is lethal. The first ones to be affected by vomiting, convulsions unconsciousness and death, would be the children. The same children that local Texas authorities found to be happy and healthy under the care of the Branch Davidians.

The FBI did not pump CS gas into the Branch Davidian compound to force its occupants to come out. They pumped gas in to make sure the occupants couldn't come out. Dead gun owners, and dead gun owner's children, tell no tales.

The time has come for us to openly discuss something that up to this time we have mainly whispered about. The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to threaten the government. The framers of our Constitution knew that government is a necessary evil, which, as in the case of the British government, could easily become more evil than necessary. The Founding Fathers wanted to ensure that should that situation again come to pass, the American people would have the capability to reclaim their country by force of arms.

I believe that we are dangerously close to that day when we will have to use the 2nd Amendment in exactly the manner that our forefathers anticipated. When I was a boy, my father could buy firearms through the mail. It was rightly believed at the time that such a transaction was the business of the buyer, the gun dealer and no one else. I lost that right with the passage of the GCA in 1968. In my lifetime, I have been able to walk into a gun store, select a handgun, and walk out of that store with that gun in my hand. My children lost that right with the passage of the Brady Bill. I'm not giving up any more rights.

I sincerely hope that a political solution to this problem is still possible, and I will continue to work on the NRA Board of Directors to try to find that solution. But if that solution cannot be found, I say this to the megalomaniacs in Washington:

Pass your gun laws. I will not beg the government for a license to continue to be a handgun owner. I will not submit to being fingerprinted or photographed or interrogated like a criminal for claiming my birthright as a free American. I will not register a single gun that I own. I will not surrender a single gun that I own. I will not apply for an "arsenal" license because I own more than 20 guns or more than a thousand rounds of ammunition. I will not attend mandatory safety training, nor will I submit to a test to prove that I'm fit to be a gun owner. And Miss Reno, I have this to say to you: If you send your jack-booted, baby-burning bushwhackers to confiscate my guns, pack them a lunch; it will be a damned long day. The Branch Davidians were amateurs; I'm a professional.

[Petrovich]

That's a powerful speech.

In principle I agree 200%.

The recollections of ruby ridge and waco were a bit scewed, perhaps, but exactly right-on in prinicple.

Sadly, it is a different society we live in today.

Yes, it is our right under the Constitution to bear arms....yet, there are American citizens who are unfit to have access to firearms...it's a sad fact folks.

As many of you know, I work in a sporting goods store that sells firearms. I can say first hand that some of the characters who walk in there, IMO, have NO BUSINESS putting their hands on a weapon, much less walk out the store with it.

As much as I hate the concept, I am at least partially relieved when I call in a background check and the operator says "proceed".

What I am saying is that complete, unrestricted access to firearms simply by virtue of your American citizenship would be, in practice, a disaster waiting to happen.

[Scott]

Well, IMHO, the Good Lieutenant is spot-on in his descriptions of what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge--this I base on reports, etc. that did not come filtered through the mouths of Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw or Peter Jennings (good riddance to all). [I am not saying that your views are a result of the "big 3's" reporting, BTW ] On the other hand, we cannot prove the motivations behind the actions of the perpetrators of Waco and Ruby Ridge, but we've seen enough of this type of behavior to make some very educated guesses. If that's the worst Lt. Thomas can be accused of, so be it.

As for who can and cannot bear arms in these united States, all things being equal, we shouldn't have to worry about the "wrong" people getting their hands on firearms, since they would have been already jailed or dispatched with prejudice. But as a friend once opined, our touchy-feely socialist society allows such predators to exist in disproportionate numbers. We get the government we deserve.

[NavyChief]

What ever happened to the good LT? He still around? I can't believe, given the tenor of that speech, he would cowtow to the Cinci gov't in his job...

P4G -
I understand what you're saying, nonetheless I disagree. There are certainly any number of folks I'd rather not have a gun as well - but I don't feel that's my call to make. Neither is it the *.gov's. To put it quite simply, those folks are why I have guns. And they're going to get their's one way or another. Or they'll come at me with a knife. Or a bat. Or a brick. ...you get the idea.

What I am saying is that complete, unrestricted access to firearms simply by virtue of your American citizenship would be, in practice, a disaster waiting to happen.

As the good LT pointed out, it seemed to work out just fine prior to 1968...

[Brian D.]

Harry Thomas has been (and may still be) on the NRA Board of Directors. He showed up at the Open Carry Walk in Xenia, packin' a Colt SAA if memory serves. Also, his outspoken ways while on the CPD never cost him his job, but as I understand he was posted in a few less-than-enviable assignments during his final years of service.

The Police Chief from those days retired and went into used car sales, which may or may not say something about HIS character..

[toddhill]

As many of you know, I work in a sporting goods store that sells firearms. I can say first hand that some of the characters who walk in there, IMO, have NO BUSINESS putting their hands on a weapon, much less walk out the store with it.

Do not forget that that is YOUR opinion. IMO, you have no right to determine who or who not should be able to purchase a gun. Your job is to follow the rules that govern you in your job. I hope your opinion stays with you. I would hate for you to attempt to deny someone the right to purchase a gun based on appearance.

The first time I ever walked in to a firearms store, I was nervous as hell. I knew nothing about the subject. It took a while for me to build up enough confidence to be able to browse through a store without being made to feel inferior to the experts on staff.

I was made to feel inferior recently at a local outdoors store. They lost out on a $600 purchase that day. I will never go back.

IMO.

[Ursus americanus]

Petrofergov; mind if I take some liberty with your original quote to make a point?

That's a powerful speech.

In principle I agree 200%.

The recollections of ruby ridge and waco were a bit scewed, perhaps, but exactly right-on in prinicple.

Sadly, it is a different society we live in today.

Yes, it is our right under the Constitution to bear arms....yet, there are American citizens who are unfit to have access to voting...it's a sad fact folks.

As many of you know, I work in a polling location where people vote. I can say first hand that some of the characters who walk in there, IMO, have NO BUSINESS putting their hands on a voting machine, much less actually voting

As much as I hate the concept, I am at least partially relieved when I find they can legally vote.

What I am saying is that complete, unrestricted access to votingsimply by virtue of your American citizenship would be, in practice, a disaster waiting to happen.

We could use all manners of rights to fill in here; freedom of speech; freedom of worship; etc, etc.

The real problem is there is a lack of responsibility in today's society. We try to hard to legislate common sense, decency, morality and responsibility. Many people have no business getting into a vehicle and driving down the street - they lack the moral responsibility to excercise the privelage responsibly. The difference is that owning a firearm is a GOD GIVEN right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States (that's guarenteed - not granted).

Let's hold those whose actions are irresponsible and neglegent accountable and stop hindering and infringing on those who are responsible and lawful.

[Glock and dagger]

What I am saying is that complete, unrestricted access to firearms simply by virtue of your American citizenship would be, in practice, a disaster waiting to happen.

I suppose it has never occured to anyone that restricting firearm ownership is what caused the disaster in the first place, has it?

I might also say that a background check, while infringing the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, also is an inadvertent admission on the part of the (in)justice system that it has failed the American people. Had it done its job, no background check would be necessary, would it?

And in a society full of law-abiding citizens with weaponry, do any of you honestly think criminals would do the things they do, knowing that the populace is heavily armed, and will kill them the instance they step out of line??

Something to think about.....

[Ursus americanus]

And in a society full of law-abiding citizens with weaponry, do any of you honestly think criminals would do the things they do, knowing that the populace is heavily armed, and will kill them the instance they step out of line??

Something to think about.....

So what you're saying is "an armed society is a polite society"? Wow, that's rather provocative concept. . . .

[TunnelRat]

And in a society full of law-abiding citizens with weaponry, do any of you honestly think criminals would do the things they do, knowing that the populace is heavily armed, and will kill them the instance they step out of line??

Yup, think of all the cowboy movies we grew up with. Was there a police force in Dodge City or Tombstone (or Silverado)? Heck no! There was a sheriff and maybe a coupla deputies. When there was a need to deal with bad guys, the sheriff relied on armed citizens to assist him -- and there were plenty of armed citizens.

[Glock and dagger]

So what you're saying is "an armed society is a polite society"? Wow, that's rather provocative concept. . . .

Provocative, yes. Is it altogether original? Not by a long shot. I cannot take credit for that thesis.

[NavyChief]

What I am saying is that complete, unrestricted access to voting simply by virtue of your American citizenship would be, in practice, a disaster waiting to happen.

Uhmm, it pretty much already is. But maybe I oughta just leave that hot potato alone.

[NavyChief]

And in a society full of law-abiding citizens with weaponry, do any of you honestly think criminals would do the things they do, knowing that the populace is heavily armed, and will kill them the instance they step out of line??

Yep. Perhaps one day I'll share the story of the time I decided that no, I wasn't going to let a couple young punks talk to me that way. It's simply amazing how effective a little backbone (and a dose of temporary insanity) can be...

[Jim-in-Toledo]

"An armed society is a polite society"

It seems to me that the majority of people who use this term usually seem to apply it to the "bad guy". (Not a good bet IMHO.)

I believe that it applies more to the "good guy" who is armed, who is more likely to be polite because HE (or She) (not nessesarilly the bad guy) is armed and aware of the potential consequenses of an armed response to any situation.

This would seem to lead to a lessening in the presence of "The victem mentality", which would in turn, lead the "bad guy" to look elsewhere for his victem.

This ramble doesn't sound quite right, but I think you can follow where I am going with this. If anyone can word it better, please do so as I am interested in how this should be worded to make my point better.