Lawmakers Consider Stamps on Bullets

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Ursus americanus
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Lawmakers Consider Stamps on Bullets

Post by Ursus americanus »

I found this on FOX News. They won't stop until they have got all of the guns away from "We The People" and they'll do whatever it takes to get them!
LOS ANGELES — Lawmakers in California now have two bills on the table that could aid in the search for gun-firing assailants.

Forensics investigators currently have the ability to match the unique signature on every bullet to the gun it was fired from. The problem then becomes, for detectives and law enforcement, finding the gun itself and the person who fired it.

California Senate Bill 357 and its sister bill Assembly Bill 352 would have all new guns stamp an I.D. number on shell casings as they fire, and require every semi-automatic handgun sold after Jan. 1, 2009, to be equipped with the new microstamping technology that assigns traceable serial numbers to individual bullets.

According to these proposals, any semi-automatic not on California's Section 12131 roster —the list of weapons that do not possess the ability to create microstamps — will be defined as an "unsafe" handgun.

California state Assemblyman Paul Koretz (search), D-West Hollywood, is one of the bill's authors.

"Imagine how much easier it would be, in the case of my bill microstamping, if there was just a number and you call it into a database and you know exactly who it is in five or 10 minutes," Koretz said.

Critics argue the laws will punish law-abiding citizens and sportsmen by raising costs. Those in the gun and ammo manufacturing business add that they're tired of bearing the brunt of gun crime and accuse lawmakers of targeting their livelihood.

"I will stop selling ammo the day after. So if that's what the lawmakers want, is that guys like me to get out of the ammunition business, then all they have to do is tell me I have to spend 15, 20 minutes to paperwork a $2 box of ammo and I'm out," says Ted Szajer, owner of L.A. Guns.

Opponents insist these laws are just anti-gun politics that penalize law-abiding citizens who do not abuse guns.

Sam Paredes, the Executive Director of the organization Gun Owners of California (search), said recreational use will be adversely affected.

"Small .22 caliber ammunition — that people use to play with and for target practice — the cost of that will be $50, $60, $70 a box if this bill were to go into effect. That isn't going to solve any crimes," he said.

But members of law enforcement and lawmakers and who support the bills call traceable bullets an obvious next step in connecting criminals to their crimes.

The bill proposed by Attorney General Bill Lockyer (search) and supported by the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence has already passed the Assembly and one Senate panel. It is up for further review in August
TunnelRat
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Post by TunnelRat »

If California passes that law, firearms and ammunition manufacturers ought to refuse to sell their products in the state -- not even to the police.
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

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Post by Glock and dagger »

I hear that!!!
I'm Glock and Dagger and I approved this message.

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Brian_Horton
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Post by Brian_Horton »

This is a retarded law. If criminals can file off gun serial numbers then they can just as easily file off ammo serial numbers or the stamping mechanism on a gun. Heck you could load one round over and over again and stamp the case so many times it is unreadable. Criminals that know about the casing stamping will just pick up their spent casings or get a revolver. Heck even if the casing is stamped and left behind that doesn't mean it will lead you to the criminal, a large portion of gun crimes are committed with stolen guns. Then there is of course the obvious. Buy your gun and ammo illegally out of state and then they can't trace that either or get an older gun that was round before the ammo serialization law.
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Willy P
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Post by Willy P »

The well meaning IDIOTS are in control! I have a friend that came home from work, or was called home from work, ( this was something like 30 years ago) to find ATF sitting by his house. His 22-250 was supposedly used in a murder in PA (?) and they wanted it. Serial # yadayadyada from maker XXXXX. He complied and a LONG time later got it back finally. Turned out the maker XXXXX had numbered 2 rifles in the same caliber with the same serial number. Can you imagine the headstamp thing and several makers and where that could lead with this bill? I see nervous LEO's and innocent people on the horizon!
Colt45
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Post by Colt45 »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but every gun that comes off the assembly line is test fired right? There's your "fingerprint" right there: Rifling marks. The FBI probably already has a national database. If IDing a gun is really necessary, then the manufacturer can just send photos of the bullet and the info on the gun that fired it to the FBI. This also works on revolvers and any other firearm with a rifled barrel. Wow, go figure.

Plus, it doesn't require new parts to be designed, machines built to create the new parts, and reduces the odds of two weapons accidentally getting the same microstamp.

Is it perfect? No. Will it take longer to find a match than a numbering system? Yes. But no longer than a DNA or fingerprint database.

Of course, crimes committed with stolen guns or guns that have after-factory parts make all of this a moot point.
Colt 45...it works every time
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Post by Brian_Horton »

Colt45,

Several states already have this type of ballistic finger printing system in place. They have all be total failures. They are of course one step closer to total gun registration and elimination and these systems have not solved a crime yet. Heck the Maryland State Police have requested that the government kill their ballistic finger printing program because it has cost them millions of dollars to maintain and hasn't even assisted them in solving one crime and they would rather have the money and people working other programs. This is in anti gun Maryland! This type of program is just as useless as what the Kalifornia lawmakers are suggesting, it just costs less. Neither program is a good idea and ballistic finger printing isn't even a good compromise. It all goes back to that whole slippery slop principle. We should fight any program like this as being unconstitutional.
When the goin' gets tough, the tough go cyclic.

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haspelbein
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Post by haspelbein »

The problem with the ballistic fingerprinting is that the "fingerprint" changes over time an as the gun wears. Heck, it would only take me about 15 minutes to change the "fingerprint" of my Glock completely.

The California proposal, aside from being unconstitutional, has several pitfalls:

- Bullets are very easy to make and are widely available outside of California and international markets. No criminal with 1/2 a brain will use a serialized bullet.

- Manufacturers aren't set up to keep these kind of controls. How much do I trust a manufacturer not to falsely incriminate me through incorrect serialization when they even mix calibers in one pack of ammo?
This is the point where the term "DNA" is misleading: DNA is inherently given, a serial number can be messed up in thousands of ways.

- Stamping the case is useless, because a case is a product that can be reused, and therefore be absused to incriminate a legitimate owner.

These laws therefore only have "no teeth", but have also the potential to falsely incriminate law-abiding gun owners.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud, "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis"
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Post by Colt45 »

haspelbein wrote:The problem with the ballistic fingerprinting is that the "fingerprint" changes over time an as the gun wears.
That's true. I didn't think of that.

Here's an idea. Let's just make it more dangerous/less profitable to be a criminal. I bet it won't even cost anything.
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Post by Brian_Horton »

Colt45 wrote: Here's an idea. Let's just make it more dangerous/less profitable to be a criminal. I bet it won't even cost anything.
The only way to do that is to throw them in jail and leave them there for longer periods of time and not make it a "pleasant experience" where they have better entertainment options and more time to sit on their butts than most honest people on the outside.
When the goin' gets tough, the tough go cyclic.

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Post by Petrovich »

I must have missed the point.

The way I read it, the gun will stamp the shell casing as it it fired.

Nothing is done to the ammunition itself at the factory.

How is this going to help??? It is already easy to match a bullet AND casing to the gun that fired it. Casings are particularly easy since they are usually recovered intact. Extractors, ejectors, firing pins, chamber imperfections etc. all leave marks unique to the gun that fired it.

If you stamp the inside of the chamber to leave a SN what good is that going to do??? To be effective, you would need a stamp that has the shooters name on it :roll: That would be a challenge.

Oh, wait I see it now. By stamping the chamber with a SN and recording that number at the time of transfer you'd have a record of who bought the gun...but now we're looking at gun registration.

I suppose subsequent transfers would require the seller to record who he/she sold the gun to. Obliterating the SN would be no different than removing the SN from the receiver, legally speaking.

I still don't see how that would impact the price of ammunition, since noting is done with the ammo at the time of sale.

This is one of those compromises I would not object too if it weren't for the fact you are dealing with a bunch of radicals that want to disarm us. I mean, if it helps law enforcement catch bad guys I'm usually all for it.
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Post by glockinfairfield »

Just ask the Kanucks up in the Great White Norf about expensive, useless gun programs. I think we conservatives keep asking,basically, "why do people all over the world wish to rehash things that don't work- communism, increasing revenues in gov't with more taxes , gun-control measures , square wheels, ...OK, I made the last one up, but is it any more ridiculous than the rest? Libs can't even run for office on their true agendas and people still haven't learned...and elect them! To borrow a phrase from SNL's Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer skit... "Their world is strange, and it scares me!"
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Petrovich
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Post by Petrovich »

glockinfairfield wrote:Just ask the Kanucks up in the Great White Norf about expensive, useless gun programs. I think we conservatives keep asking,basically, "why do people all over the world wish to rehash things that don't work- communism, increasing revenues in gov't with more taxes , gun-control measures , square wheels, ...OK, I made the last one up, but is it any more ridiculous than the rest? Libs can't even run for office on their true agendas and people still haven't learned...and elect them! To borrow a phrase from SNL's Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer skit... "Their world is strange, and it scares me!"
It's because liberals like to think they are smarter than everyone else. They come up with these "new" ideas and then get all pee'd off when everyone doesn't jump on board with them.

If they would bother to study a little history they would realize that there is NOTHING new under the sun. It's all been tried at one time or another.

One need look no further than the liberalization that occurred during the 60's and 70's. Hey....just for the record....I think Vietnam was a war worth fighting, and if the screwball hippies hadn't made such butts out of themselves and undermined our efforts as a nation, we probably would have won.

The anti war element in this country today is no different than the hippies were back in the 60's. They don't understand why we invaded Iraq because they don't want to understand. They just think it's cool to be against the war.

What they don't realize is what they are doing is sedition, and they are hurting our efforts to defeat terrorism.

Just to answer any questions before they start....Here's why we are fighting in Iraq.

The middle east NEEDS an example of freedom and democracy in it's midst. Iraq was ripe for the picking. Saddam was a jerk, he was begging for a bloody nose; so President Bush gave it to him. Iraq was simply the most convenient place to start...that's it.

If we can establish a free state of Iraq it will be the seed of freedom and democracy in the middle east. The middle east has been for thousands of years run by evil, fundamentalisy little power mongers. They thrive off the oppression of others. That system of 'government' has to be eliminated if there is ever going to be a hope of defeating terrorism. Those places breed terrorists because they are such miserable places to live. People get angry, and they look for a scapegoat. With a little encouragement from their 'leaders' the raghead clerics can convince these angry people that the US is the source of their misery. Voila.....instant terrorists.

If and when Iraq becomes a free state it will show the rest of the middle east's people that they don't have to live like dogs. They can benefit from the wealth of their land, and share it, instead of all the wealth going to a few. Their children will actually have a future.

Sexually frustrated young men will, hopefully, be able to date, and have girlfriends; instead of some mutilated, terrorized girl covered up with a gunny sack.

Muslims have some pretty sick ways about them. Subjugation and oppression of people being the most notable. That system of life needs some serious overhaul. If it isn't changed we will continue to see a steady stream of very angry people who can only get relief of their anguish by lashing out, and hurting others.
Last edited by Petrovich on Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
glockinfairfield
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Post by glockinfairfield »

They'll get my bullets stamped when they lick my cold, dead hands...oh no, wait, that's wrong..
Glocks and Nikons. Is this a great country or what!?
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Post by TunnelRat »

Petrofergov wrote:I mean, if it helps law enforcement catch bad guys I'm usually all for it.
But it is not about helping law enforcement catch bad guys. Check with the LEO's -- they don't want it!

This law is solely about harassing law-abiding gun owners, registering guns, and making the way for total firearm confiscation.
TunnelRat

"Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States." ~ McDonald v. Chicago

When your only tools are a hammer and sickle, every problem starts to look like too much freedom.
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