Counter argument to statements of fear?

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Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Stryker74 » Thu May 15, 2014 9:27 am

Posting this in the womens issues section because this pertains to a conversation about women staying in a abused/battered women's shelter. I am purposely leaving out as many details as possible, as I don't want to reveal too much about this shelter, for obvious reasons.

I have a friend who runs a women's shelter. She put out a note about wanting to get someone to teach some women some self-defense skills, in terms of hand-to-hand. I offered to reach out to a couple of people that I think could help with that - and I offered some advice on self-defense.

Of course, my advice included suggestions of firearms training and getting an emergency CHL from the county sheriff. She was aghast that I would even suggest that, as she was certain that "these women would have their guns taken from them and would be killed with them". She even went on to say that one of the women had a gun, but the husband/boyfriend took it from her and kept it - and the woman was sure that she was going to die by a bullet from her own gun.

I countered with saying that the training in firearms and self-defense would need to be empowering to these women. Having never been in "their shoes" so to speak - I honestly cannot say that I understand their fear of their abuser - but I can understand how to enable someone to be self-empowered. From the mental aspect of it, the ability to know how to defend one's self is a powerful motivator - and likely would be an empowering factor in these women's lives.

I was stopped there - and matter of factly told that it would not ever happen. It was stated that these women cannot have guns because they will end up being killed by them, and that I should just drop the subject.

I tried one last counter of "Well, what the heck is kicking a guy in the groin going to do if he has a gun? She can kick and run away - but can she outrun a bullet? If the guy has the mindset to do the woman harm, a thumb to the eye or a kick in the groin is not going to stop that attacker completely."

This fear runs so deep that I was told that I could some to the shelter to help with something computer related - but I cannot be armed - EVER. They do not want a firearm (as is their choice and right) to even cross the threshold of the house - unless of course it is on the belt of a police officer.

So - was I off base with my discussion? If not, then how do I convince this person that these women need a fighting chance - a real fighting chance - that pure hand to hand self defense will probably not offer them?

(Let's keep this on topic, as this is something that I have a deep concern about. This conversation happened a few days ago, and I have been trying to process it. I really am asking for advice on this one. I have started by ordering a copy of Nikki Goeser's book to give to the shelter.)
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Javelin Man » Thu May 15, 2014 10:11 am

That lady needs to be removed from her position and get some psychiatric help for her fear of inanimate objects.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Aesinsp » Thu May 15, 2014 11:01 am

I'm not positive how you might fit this into you current circumstance, but this website logically lays out the self defense argument in a non threatening manner.. at least to me.
http://a-human-right.com

It sounds as though the 'lady of the house' has summed up their clients as incapable of rational thinking and action at least to some degree.. which may or may not be applicable to some during a crisis situation.
In regards to who comes into their home packing, its foolish to think a BG won't show up at their door at anytime. That is who these women are getting away from. The only one's kept out might be the LAC.
Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, hope and/or thoughts.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby MyWifeSaidYes » Thu May 15, 2014 12:19 pm

Do they have a room big enough for a hand-to-hand self-defense class?

If so, bring in a small woman with a concealed blue gun.

Do a couple of choke breaks, eye pokes and groin strikes, then stop and suggest what they might do BEFORE they are in contact range.

Have your small woman do some loud "Stop! Get away!" yells, then proceed to demonstrate at what point of a bad guy's approach the yelling should take place. Of course, that's also when your small woman should draw her blue gun.

The lady in charge will then ask you both to leave and never return, but the image of the small woman fending off the attacker will remain.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Mustang380gal » Thu May 15, 2014 1:11 pm

I knew I'd find something helpful on http://www.corneredcat.com. This is from a blog post dated 5/14, and references a video she had posted.

In this case? I think the mom became tunneled in on chasing away the danger, and lost track of her main priority. What was her main priority? That would be: to keep herself and her child safe. She focused in on fighting the danger instead of staying focused on protecting the innocent.


A firearm is not for fighting danger. It is for protecting the innocent. It is potentially the most efficient way to protect the innocent. Why would someone wish to deny any woman the means to protect her innocent child, or herself? If the woman is harmed or killed, who else will protect her child?

The woman you had the conversation with has her focus on the danger. I believe her focus is misplaced.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Stryker74 » Fri May 16, 2014 9:39 am

MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Do they have a room big enough for a hand-to-hand self-defense class?

If so, bring in a small woman with a concealed blue gun.

Do a couple of choke breaks, eye pokes and groin strikes, then stop and suggest what they might do BEFORE they are in contact range.

Have your small woman do some loud "Stop! Get away!" yells, then proceed to demonstrate at what point of a bad guy's approach the yelling should take place. Of course, that's also when your small woman should draw her blue gun.

The lady in charge will then ask you both to leave and never return, but the image of the small woman fending off the attacker will remain.


I do want to remain friends with the lady in charge, so this is not really viable - though I do understand the intent. This is a very close personal friend, and while the above actions may have some positive impact to the ladies in the shelter - I feel that it could irreparably damage said friendship.

Part of the argument was that the abuser/abused dynamic leaves these women vulnerable to that person who is abusing them. That feeds the fear of being killed by their own gun.

Having never been in that mindset, I am truly having trouble wrapping my head around that fear. Not saying that it is not valid - no way I can ever know that - but its not a situation I have been in, so I have no personal experience to draw from in my thinking.

I would honestly like to hear from women who might have been in a similar fear situation. If someone reads this, but doesn't want to share on the forum - then PM me. I am honestly trying to understand it all, as I have a desire to help empower these women if at all possible - whether it comes down to firearms or just helping them break/confront their fear in some way.

Anything sent to me in PM will be kept in complete confidence - this is not for any gain except to try to help some ladies that feel they are up against the world with no help but the little that the shelter can offer them.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby TKshooter » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:04 pm

I really dislike when that statement is made about women- that the gun will probably be taken from us.

I always felt it was a matter of training, comfort, and will.

If you teach a girl that all she has to do is show the gun and the bad guy will flee- then yes there may be a higher chance the gun will get snatched since the bad guy will know the woman isn't serious.

I firmly believe the mere sight of the gun will not send anyone running.

If I pull a gun to defend my life I am ready to use it and no one is taking it away from me... not without one hell of a struggle.

Women should be empowered more- and taught that this tool- a gun- is something they can use to help save their lives and protect their family.

I've done some role playing training with my husband with blue guns.... and its tough when he comes at me- not full force- but enough to be realistic and it really makes me think about how much training I still need and how real things can get- its not the movies- racking the slide won't send the bad guy fleeing and I can't flip a 300 pound man over my shoulder with a wrist flick. I have to be ready to defend my life with every ounce of life I have.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Tweed Ring » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:25 pm

Have a liberal lady friend, a lawyer, lives in Bexley. We were discussing Ohio's CHL. Asked her about the police response time in Bexley and she said about 3 minutes. Great policing in Bexley.

I said, OK, let's see if you can hold your breath for 3 minutes, pretend you have just called 911 before I begin to strangle you. BTW, if you need help holding your breath for 3 minutes, just ask me to put my hand over your mouth and nose. About 40 seconds later, she got my point.

Now, we do this again, but this time she has a concealed pistol. How long can she hold her breath? About as long as it takes her to pull the trigger. Point taken - lesson understood.

Can't use this example in my rural county...sheriff's office response time is, on average, about 14 minutes.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Bama.45 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:09 pm

Tweed Ring wrote:Have a liberal lady friend, a lawyer, lives in Bexley. We were discussing Ohio's CHL. Asked her about the police response time in Bexley and she said about 3 minutes. Great policing in Bexley.

I said, OK, let's see if you can hold your breath for 3 minutes, pretend you have just called 911 before I begin to strangle you. BTW, if you need help holding your breath for 3 minutes, just ask me to put my hand over your mouth and nose. About 40 seconds later, she got my point.

Now, we do this again, but this time she has a concealed pistol. How long can she hold her breath? About as long as it takes her to pull the trigger. Point taken - lesson understood.

Can't use this example in my rural county...sheriff's office response time is, on average, about 14 minutes.



Does she live next door to the police station?..3 mins seems awful short considering they could be across town etc..I'd be willing to bet unless she lives extremely close to the police station the response time is closer to 10 mins..I could be wrong..Still doesn't take but a minute or less to stab or shoot someone or like you said choke them.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Tweed Ring » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:24 pm

Bama.45 wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:Have a liberal lady friend, a lawyer, lives in Bexley. We were discussing Ohio's CHL. Asked her about the police response time in Bexley and she said about 3 minutes. Great policing in Bexley.

I said, OK, let's see if you can hold your breath for 3 minutes, pretend you have just called 911 before I begin to strangle you. BTW, if you need help holding your breath for 3 minutes, just ask me to put my hand over your mouth and nose. About 40 seconds later, she got my point.

Now, we do this again, but this time she has a concealed pistol. How long can she hold her breath? About as long as it takes her to pull the trigger. Point taken - lesson understood.

Can't use this example in my rural county...sheriff's office response time is, on average, about 14 minutes.



Does she live next door to the police station?..3 mins seems awful short considering they could be across town etc..I'd be willing to bet unless she lives extremely close to the police station the response time is closer to 10 mins..I could be wrong..Still doesn't take but a minute or less to stab or shoot someone or like you said choke them.


Bexley is a very wealthy enclave next to Columbus. They publish and are proud of their 3 minute, or lower, response time. Governor's Mansion is in Bexley, crawling with troopers. Boatloads of doctors and lawyers, most either wealthy or very wealthy live there. They expect, and demand a prompt response.

I have no idea as to the location of their PD station. Until they began to recognize my car, they would follow me to my destination. I joked with one LEO who stopped me if he wanted to see my passport. Once, I was bringing a Bexley resident home from a hospital stay. I turned a corner, and was right in the midst of a school bus discharging little kids to various awaiting matrons and maids. Crawling with LEO's.

LEO ordered me to stop, and he approached me with his hand on the weapon. Asked me what I was doing and where I was going. I'm driving a decent car, wearing a suit and tie. He noticed my passenger was an MOT, so I assume that's why he didn't drag me out and cuff me.They are very protective of those kids. Very.

Not a place for members of the dumb criminal underclass to to practice their trade.

ETA: 2.5 square miles, about 13K residents, boatloads of professional, aggressive cops with access to Columbus P.D.'s choppers.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Bama.45 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:23 pm

That's awesome that she has that response time... You made a valid point with her though about 3 mins being too long... And what if God forbid she wasn't home and got attacked? Crime of opportunity happens all the time.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Tweed Ring » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:30 pm

Sure, the lady, who now has her CHL, works all over Columbus.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Bama.45 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:36 pm

Glad to hear that she took the advice and did something with it... I personally think women especially need to be able to protect themselves...I don't mean that in a bad way, just saying to the majority of the criminal element women look like easy targets... I have been teaching my fiancé firearm safety and also marksmanship skills... I want her to get her CHL.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Tweed Ring » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:45 pm

I pushed this lady, and a number of other couples I have adopted, to get their CHL's. All of my adopted kids have them, as well as NRA memberships. I told the women that the men may not always be there to protect them...and...sometimes their men may need backup.

My late sister, who lived in Texas, wasn't a gun person, until she came home from work, and found 3 "unexpected guests" (the PC designation, a euphemism for illegal aliens) trying to kick in her door. She then changed her mind.
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Re: Counter argument to statements of fear?

Postby Bama.45 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:54 pm

Yeah my fiancé wasn't too keen on firearms, but I have gotten her used to them now and explained to her, they aren't anymore dangerous on their own than say a car. It is a tool, criminals are the danger, not the tool.
"Lord, make my hand fast and accurate.
Let my aim be true and my hand faster
than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those who wish to do harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be 'If I only had my gun."
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
Amen




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~The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.~ Thomas Jefferson
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